Nylon string recommendations.

[rgregg48]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

The Martin, ball end nylon strings, in high tension, are about the same tension as the D'Addario EJ46 high tension nylon strings, which is a pretty good standard. I'd bet the Martin strings are probably made by D'Addario, .

Martin makes their own steel strings,,
I dont know about the nylon though,
Willie Nelson uses ball end strings, i think because he does not
like changing them,, and does not do it very often.
Willie plays through a pickup anyway.. and what would you
expect from a guy who puts a sound port right under the sound
hole?
Rick

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by Garthman

Thank you, Special B. Nice to see some correct comments here.

Correct comments??? That's a joke, right? If you want to make bold statements, you should start with doing your research. If you go to the Martin website, you can educate yourself. They make their own strings, and D'Addario should have similar information on their website, as well. Ball-end strings are higher tension that their plain-end equivalents. You think you're being "smart" but I would disagree. Yes, Willie Nelson plays a nylon string Martin N-20 classical guitar, but if you bothered to look at it closely, you would realize that it has a special "reinforced" bridge.

What you're attempting to do here is intentionally mislead people to stroke your own ego. I find that rather reprehensible as well as irresponsible. Anyone with half a brain should be looking at classical guitarists such as Andre Segovia (RIP), Sharon Isbin, Ana Vidovic, Christopher Parkening, and about 1000 other well known classical guitarists to see what they are using for strings, instead of stating your opinions, which, quite frankly, I find humorous. If you're looking to Willie Nelson for how to care for your classical guitar, that tells me all I need to know.

While classical music is steeped in tradition, the use of nylon strings is comparatively recent invention, as they were not in use when the music was written (baroque). Professionals that play classical guitar use the best strings available, and NOT A SINGLE ONE would even consider using ball-end strings on a classical guitar. And, just in case you missed it the first 2 times...IT'S JUST NOT DONE!!! Unless, you know something they missed. If you're lazy and don't want to learn to lash the strings properly, you should abandon playing classical guitar, and the use of a tie block bridge.

I have a lot of respect for Willie Nelson, but I feel we should watch him for entertainment not to learn how to treat a fine classical guitar. I think you would be well served if you concentrate more on subjects you have at least a small moniker of knowledge, because, with all due respect, you don't seem to know much about classical guitars, if you keep insisting it's ok to use ball-end nylon strings on them. They might work for you, but for all I know, you may be using a laminate (plywood) classical guitar. There is an increase in downward stress on the soundboard from an increase in the break angle when using ball-end strings that should be obvious. The thinner soundboard and lighter bracing typically used in the construction of a classical guitar won't hold up. And, any knowledgeable luthier should know that, if they build classical guitars, and share that same opinion.

Your comments are always welcome, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my question...which professional classical guitarist told you it was ok to use ball-end strings on your classical guitar??? I'm eagerly awaiting your response.

Glen

[WaddyT]

I disagree. I looked up the tensions, and the Martin high tension ball end strings were within ounces of total tension to the D'Addario EJ46 High Tension nylon strings. Also, the D'Addario ball end strings were in the same tension range for high tension strings.

I do build classical guitars. The use of a ball end string on the tie block should not be a problem. Plenty of folks use the "Bridge Bone Beads" to increase break angle. Some folks have trouble getting a 6 string tie tight enough to maintain a good break angle. Personally, I use an 18 hole bridge so the string comes from the bottom of the tie block instead of near the top as you often get with a 6 string tie. A well built classical guitar, and I don't mean production guitars or plywood guitars, I mean luthier built guitars, should easily handle the difference in break angle from a 6 string tie to a ball end string. I know mine would, as the 18 hole tie block would have the same break angle as a ball end would have.

And, no, I don't know any players who use ball end strings other than folk guitarists. And I know they are designed for pin bridges, however, they also decrease the time involved in a string change, and they give a better break angle which might make some guitars more responsive. I just can't see the harm.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

Correct comments??? That's a joke, right? If you want to make bold statements, you should start with doing your research. If you go to the Martin website, you can educate yourself. They make their own strings, and D'Addario should have similar information on their website, as well. Ball-end strings are higher tension that their plain-end equivalents. You think you're being "smart" but I would disagree. Yes, Willie Nelson plays a nylon string Martin M-10 classical guitar, but if you bothered to look at it closely, you would realize that it has a special "reinforced" bridge.

What you're attempting to do here is intentionally mislead people to stroke your own ego. I find that rather reprehensible as well as irresponsible. Anyone with half a brain should be looking at classical guitarists such as Andre Segovia (RIP), Sharon Isbin, Ana Vidovic, Christopher Parkening, and about 1000 other well known classical guitarists to see what they are using for strings, instead of stating your opinions, which, quite frankly, I find humorous. If you're looking to Willie Nelson for how to care for your classical guitar, that tells me all I need to know.

While classical music is steeped in tradition, the use of nylon strings is comparatively recent invention, as they were not in use when the music was written (baroque). Professionals that play classical guitar use the best strings available, and NOT A SINGLE ONE would even consider using ball-end strings on a classical guitar. And, just in case you missed it the first 2 times...IT'S JUST NOT DONE!!! Unless, you know something they missed. If you're lazy and don't want to learn to lash the strings properly, you should abandon playing classical guitar, and the use of a tie block bridge.

I have a lot of respect for Willie Nelson, but I feel we should watch him for entertainment not to learn how to treat a fine classical guitar. I think you would be well served if you concentrate more on subjects you have at least a small moniker of knowledge, because, with all due respect, you don't seem to know much about classical guitars, if you keep insisting it's ok to use ball-end nylon strings on them. They might work for you, but for all I know, you may be using a laminate (plywood) classical guitar. There is an increase in downward stress on the soundboard from an increase in the break angle when using ball-end strings that should be obvious. The thinner soundboard and lighter bracing typically used in the construction of a classical guitar won't hold up. And, any knowledgeable luthier should know that, if they build classical guitars, and share that same opinion.

Your comments are always welcome, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my question...which professional classical guitarist told you it was ok to use ball-end strings on your classical guitar??? I'm eagerly awaiting your response.

Glen

I'm sorry to have to say so, Glen, but this ^ ^ ^ is just ranting. It's you that is peddling misinformation, not I. You have made the erroneous claim - here and elsewhere - that ball-end nylon strings will ruin a classical guitar "because of their higher tension" and that is just not the case: ball-end strings do not have higher tension than equivalent loop-end ones and some other obviously knowledgable people here have substantiated that fact.

It's irrelevant whether or not professional classical guitarists use them - that does not change the facts. Indeed, I prefer to use loop-end strings myself: I prefer the look of strings tied to a classical bridge and my strings of choice (La Bella 850 and 900 series) are loop-end. I only use ball-end strings on an old Yammie classical (my back-up and upon which I once used loop-ends) because, over the years, the top has raised so I use ball-ends to increase the break angle - it's had ballend strings on it now for several years and seems perfectly OK. My main classical guitar is probably going to need ball-ends too sometime in the not too distant future - it's almost 45 years old and has always been strung with loop-end strings but the tension of the strings inevitably causes the top to raise.

I've owned and played classical guitars (and steel string and electric guitars) for over 45 years, Glen, and do set ups, repairs, adaptations, etc for myself and for friends (without any complaints) and have done so for years - I may not be an "expert luthier" but I've learned a lot about guitars.

You comments are rude and childish and clearly demonstrate your lack of knowledge not mine.

[CCFingerstyle]

FWIW, it my understanding that Willie Nelson plays a Martin N-20 instrument, not a "M-10." At least that is what is states in the Martin Guitars: A Technical Reference by Richard Johnson and Dick Boak (p.107).

I do not think there is such a guitar as a Martin M-10 (there is however, a N-10 model). I'm not sure what else about the post is correct or incorrect, but that statement about Willie's guitar is incorrect.

Interesting game of NIGYSOB going on about ball-end strings.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

I disagree. I looked up the tensions, and the Martin high tension ball end strings were within ounces of total tension to the D'Addario EJ46 High Tension nylon strings. Also, the D'Addario ball end strings were in the same tension range for high tension strings.

I do build classical guitars. The use of a ball end string on the tie block should not be a problem. Plenty of folks use the "Bridge Bone Beads" to increase break angle. Some folks have trouble getting a 6 string tie tight enough to maintain a good break angle. Personally, I use an 18 hole bridge so the string comes from the bottom of the tie block instead of near the top as you often get with a 6 string tie. A well built classical guitar, and I don't mean production guitars or plywood guitars, I mean luthier built guitars, should easily handle the difference in break angle from a 6 string tie to a ball end string. I know mine would, as the 18 hole tie block would have the same break angle as a ball end would have.

And, no, I don't know any players who use ball end strings other than folk guitarists. And I know they are designed for pin bridges, however, they also decrease the time involved in a string change, and they give a better break angle which might make some guitars more responsive. I just can't see the harm.

Precisely: "the same break angle as a ball-end" - thank you, Waddy T.

So, Glen, all those "expert luthiers" building those nice classical guitars with 18 hole bridges are "irresponsibly misleading people", huh? The bridge is going rip off "because of the higher tension due to the break angle", huh? Crap.

[YamaYairi]

I used to play Savarez Reds. I became disenchanted with them, so I looked up what Jason Vieaux plays, and his website said Galli Genius strings. I tried them and I think the tone is much better than the Savarez. Been using them ever since.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

I used to play Savarez Reds. I became disenchanted with them, so I looked up what Jason Vieaux plays, and his website said Galli Genius strings. I tried them and I think the tone is much better than the Savarez. Been using them ever since.

There are better strings on Savarez catalogue than Reds but Galli Genius are great strings.

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

A well built classical guitar, and I don't mean production guitars or plywood guitars, I mean luthier built guitars, should easily handle the difference in break angle from a 6 string tie to a ball end string. I know mine would, as the 18 hole tie block would have the same break angle as a ball end would have.

And, no, I don't know any players who use ball end strings other than folk guitarists. And I know they are designed for pin bridges, however, they also decrease the time involved in a string change, and they give a better break angle which might make some guitars more responsive. I just can't see the harm.

WaddyT, I'm sure you would agree that very few students (beginner level) would invest the money necessary for a luthier built classical guitar. It's much more likely they would be learning on a factory produced student guitar in the $500 to $1000 range or below. That is where the quality is marginally good enough to produce a decent sound. But, that is also where problems are most likely to occur. With individuals that don't yet have adequate skill or knowledge to make the choices about string tension, improving tone, proper hand position, technique, nuance, etc. The same is true for choosing the correct strings to use. Every beginner that I have taught has had problems anchoring plain-end nylon strings to their brand new "classical" guitar. I make it part of my instruction. They don't know about what strings are best for their particular instrument. They are usually overwhelmed with so much information, they aren't able to retain much.

It doesn't seem logical (to me) to teach them the wrong way to do something, or even a "shortcut" so they can change their strings faster. They should be learning how to anchor the nylon strings correctly, right from the start. If they choose to use higher quality strings at some point in the future, to achieve better tone, or use a shortcut, it would make sense to make sure they had enough information, so they could make knowledgeable choices at some point. Teaching them the wrong way to do something makes no sense to me, so I don't do it. If they ask about ball-end strings, which seems to occur more frequently after seeing Willie Nelson play, I try to keep it as simple as possible, by saying those strings are made to be used on a pin-style bridge...or as some people would say, the KISS method.

Glen

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by CCFingerstyle

FWIW, it my understanding that Willie Nelson plays a Martin N-20 instrument, not a "M-10." At least that is what is states in the Martin Guitars: A Technical Reference by Richard Johnson and Dick Boak (p.107).

I do not think there is such a guitar as a Martin M-10 (there is however, a N-10 model). I'm not sure what else about the post is correct or incorrect, but that statement about Willie's guitar is incorrect.

Interesting game of NIGYSOB going on about ball-end strings.

You are correct, my mistake. Apologies to all. I'm not sure if NIGYSOB is the correct acronym...probably a little understated if you ask me.

Glen

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by Garthman

Precisely: "the same break angle as a ball-end" - thank you, Waddy T.

So, Glen, all those "expert luthiers" building those nice classical guitars with 18 hole bridges are "irresponsibly misleading people", huh? The bridge is going rip off "because of the higher tension due to the break angle", huh? Crap.

Hahahahaha!!! Garthman, I love it when you misquote people! You're funny!

Glen

[WaddyT]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

It doesn't seem logical (to me) to teach them the wrong way to do something, or even a "shortcut" so they can change their strings faster. They should be learning how to anchor the nylon strings correctly, right from the start. If they choose to use higher quality strings at some point in the future, to achieve better tone, or use a shortcut, it would make sense to make sure they had enough information, so they could make knowledgeable choices at some point. Teaching them the wrong way to do something makes no sense to me, so I don't do it. If they ask about ball-end strings, which seems to occur more frequently after seeing Willie Nelson play, I try to keep it as simple as possible, by saying those strings are made to be used on a pin-style bridge...or as some people would say, the KISS method.

Glen

I do not disagree with that philosophy. Every student of classical guitar should be taught to correctly tie strings on a 6 string tie block. I'm just saying if a lot of these guys are really steel string players and have a nylon for a change of pace, then if they are lazy enough to not want to fool with the "correct tie", then a ball end string will not do any damage, and might save some time. The guitars they are buying, mostly, are as you mentioned in the $300 - $1,000 range, and are, generally, more heavily built than luthier built guitars, so the ball end strings would not do any damage, and, again, might, increase the responsiveness of the instrument.

Not saying it's right, just no harm - no foul.

[scottishrogue]

I agree that inexpensive classical guitars should be heavier than a luthier built fine classical, but many coming in from Asia show damage upon arrival, and are sold as "blemish" or B Stock quite frequently. The most common defect that I have seen is bridge lift and cracks in the soundboards on both sides of the bridge. Now, this damage is obviously not caused by the use of ball-end nylon strings, but the strings installed at the factory, probably plain-end medium tension strings. If they don't even hold up with medium tension nylons, installed at the factory, you know that they won't hold up for higher tension strings, no matter how they are anchored. This indicates to me that either their construction is inconsistent, the wood is not dried properly, the quality control is non-existent, or they are exposed to extreme temperature and humidity changes at some point during shipping or a combination. I own several classical guitars from Japan, China, Indonesia and Taiwan (all with minor defects) that all seem to be good quality, with good tone, but I think one needs to very cautious when considering a low-end classical guitar, as using the wrong strings could be catastrophic.

Glen

[bohemian]

Heavier for less expensive guitars does not take into consideration highly regarded and expensive guitars such as Fleta and Friederich. Both of these are considered heavy guitars.

Velasquez was known to make guitars in the style of Hauser. His tops were
.125. His backs were thick.

Weight is not an indicator of quality.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

I agree that inexpensive classical guitars should be heavier than a luthier built fine classical, but many coming in from Asia show damage upon arrival, and are sold as "blemish" or B Stock quite frequently. The most common defect that I have seen is bridge lift and cracks in the soundboards on both sides of the bridge. Now, this damage is obviously not caused by the use of ball-end nylon strings, but the strings installed at the factory, probably plain-end medium tension strings. If they don't even hold up with medium tension nylons, installed at the factory, you know that they won't hold up for higher tension strings, no matter how they are anchored. This indicates to me that either their construction is inconsistent, the wood is not dried properly, the quality control is non-existent, or they are exposed to extreme temperature and humidity changes at some point during shipping or a combination. I own several classical guitars from Japan, China, Indonesia and Taiwan (all with minor defects) that all seem to be good quality, with good tone, but I think one needs to very cautious when considering a low-end classical guitar, as using the wrong strings could be catastrophic.

Glen

There are many reasons (as pointed out) for bridge lifting on inexpensive Classical guitars, but hard (or extra hard) tension strings is NOT what is doing it. Extra Hard D'Addario Pro Artes are 89.7 pounds of tension (650mm scale), Regular tension Pro Artes are 83.6 pounds of tension (again, 650mm scale). That's 6.1 pounds of tension difference. Sorry, but if your bridge is going to cut lose, 6.1 pounds was NOT the deciding factor.

Jimmy

PS. FWIW, I use hard tension strings (Savaraz Corum basses, Oasis GPX Carbon trebles) on my gig classical (Kremona FG630 Fandango) because I also use steel string guitars a lot, and I want the feel of more tension to al least try to get close to the stiffness of steel string. On my "home" classicals, I use normal tension strings.