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  #1  
Old 02-28-2017, 03:23 PM
DrewStrummer DrewStrummer is offline
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Default Blackbird Rider or Rainsong NP 12 Nylon

For weeks now I can't make the decision... I want a Parlor size Nylon for travel, but also for it to song almost as good as a regular Nylon plugged in or acoustically. I've watched every video, read every review and I'm down to these two guitars but can't pull the trigger.

Perhaps some advice here can help me finally pull the trigger.
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  #2  
Old 02-28-2017, 04:16 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Both companies make excellent guitars, so few people have played probably played both. Maybe Evan or Ted? Good luck!
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  #3  
Old 02-28-2017, 04:48 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Hi Drew,

Both are excellent guitars, but very different. The Blackbird Nylon Rider has a full 2' nut, 2-3/16" spacing at the saddle, and a 25.5" scale so it feels, plays, and sounds more like a traditional classical guitar. It is a fantastic travel guitar for the classical players. The Rainsong Parlor is more of a crossover guitar, with a 1-3/4" nut, 2-3/16" at the saddle, and traditional steel string feel. If you are a steel string player who wants to add a slightly different tonal pallet to the stable, it's hard to go wrong with the Rainsong Nylon Parlor.

The two guitars are about the same size and bulk, so no difference there. The Blackbird comes in a custom gig bag while the Rainsong ships in a hardhsell case. Both are available acoustic only, or MiSi for the Blackbird, and Fishman Prefix Plus T for the Rainsong.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.
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  #4  
Old 02-28-2017, 06:49 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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In a way, it depends on your technique. Are you a steel string player looking for a crossover, or a classical player looking for something safe to travel with?

I am a steel string player, looking for a crossover. I have played classical guitars and, while the wider neck was not a problem, the square-ish neck profile was a big problem. I couldn't find a comfortable thumb location to produce a straight, relaxed wrist. As a result, after about two months of playing every day, I developed wrist and forearm pain that told me to stop, so I did. The Blackbird has a classical neck design.

I also played the Rainsong NP12. In fact, I never wanted to like a guitar more than I wanted to like this one. The size, shape, and tone are great, but they just use their standard steel string neck. You can't just put nylon strings on a steel string guitar and call it good. Nylon strings require a lightly braced top and a wider neck. Rainsong did only half the work. For me, the strings were so crowded that I had to play extremely slowly and deliberately. This took all of the fun and freedom out of playing.

So, if I had to choose one of these guitars, it would be the Blackbird, simply because I can't play the Rainsong and have fun. If I limited my playing to less than one hour per day, and took one day of rest between two days of playing, I could play the Blackbird.

A classical nut width is 52mm, a crossover nut width is 48mm, and a steel string nut width is 44.5mm. The only CF guitar with a crossover neck is Emerald.
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  #5  
Old 02-28-2017, 07:29 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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If you can handle the wait, a custom Emerald X7 nylon is parlor size. You can then specify nut width, scale, frets to the body, etc. I ordered a short scale X7 nylon a few months ago. I bang my head against the wall a couple times a day, but I'll be alright.

Jim
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2017, 08:49 AM
DrewStrummer DrewStrummer is offline
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Exactly what I was looking for, thanks.

I play mainly steel string and never classical. I mess around with a group that plays a mix of Classic Rock and Salsa-Flamenco music. I want a nylon string to meet that Salsa-Flamenco sound.

The Blackbird traditional neck, to a Rainsong thinner electric neck to a hybrid custom neck is something to think about for sure.

The reason why I want a smaller carbon is, we play (unplugged) a lot of parties outdoors or on the beach... I need something that won't be overly annoying to carry a second guitar, and can take the elements.

Decisions-decisions.
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  #7  
Old 03-01-2017, 10:41 AM
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Drew;

I've owned both guitars, and like them both. As others have noted, they are very different from one another. The blackbird is the more stunning of the two guitars in its shape and in its tonal and projection qualities--in my estimation it is the CF guitar that comes closest to sounding like a classical guitar. As nice as it is, I dislike the 2" nut and I never got comfortable with holding the guitar.

The Rainsong comes very close to sounding and feeling like a traditional classical guitar. As noted by others, the narrow nut width is a challenge for the traditional nylon string guitar player used to a lot of space between the strings. But that is not an insurmountable problem. One reason for all that space in the classical guitar is that traditional nylon strings flopped around a lot and needed some space; contemporary nylon strings come in a variety of tensions and they all work just fine with the more narrow nut width.

Another reason for the classical string spacing is the necessary finger work. I like the hybrid 1 7/8" spacing but I have gotten used to the narrow width of the Rainsong and have found that it forces me to be more precise.

In short, both guitars are sweet. The best decision would be to play both and see what feels, plays, and sounds right to you. If possible, a field trip to Ted's place would probably be the best shot at finding both guitars in the same place. You might also indicate where you live and inquire if anyone on this forum lives nearby and would let you play their guitar.

The third option mentioned, an Emerald, is also viable. What's nice about the Emerald is that you can order what you want. What's nice about the other two is that they are production instruments and can be tried before purchase and can also be found on the used market.

The fourth option is to buy them all, have a good time, and sell what doesn't work for you.
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2017, 02:21 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Salsa-flamenco is very free flowing, and can get quite fast. For me, this would literally be impossible on an NP12. While Evan is correct that a traditional classical neck is inconveniently wide for a steel string player, inconvenient is still preferable to impossible. Modern nylon strings do accommodate closer string spacing, but only to a point. For me, that point is a 48mm nut width, and all of the major guitar companies agree. Martin, Taylor, Yamaha, and Takamini all offer nylon crossovers with a 48mm nut width. None of them offer crossovers with steel string necks. Coincidence? I think not.

If you could play an NP12 for 15 minutes, you would know if it works for you or not. For me, I was continuously muting adjacent strings with my left hand by mistake, and by the time I was playing slowly enough to avoid this, I was no longer playing my style of music. 15 minutes was all the time I needed.

Of course, you can always buy a new NP12 on-line from a store with a return policy, play it for 15 minutes, and return it the next day. Personally, I don't like this kind of behavior because I don't want to buy a "new" guitar that was passed around before I bought it, so I also don't want to be the person playing a new guitar and returning it for someone else to buy as "new" later on. This is just my personal ethics. Maybe you can find an on-line retailer who is willing to ship you their floor demo for a day or two for a minimal fee, then apply that fee to a purchase if you like it.

I am guessing, however, that few retailers keep either of these guitars in stock. Nylon guitars for steel string players aren't very popular to begin with, and if the guitar doesn't have a crossover neck, the appeal is even less.
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  #9  
Old 03-01-2017, 04:17 PM
Guest 928
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Tom2;

I agree with you regarding the 48mm width--it is ideal for me. I like and will keep the Parlor, but when I go to more classical work I grab the X10-OSN with the 1 7/8" nut. The crossovers you mention are exactly the guitars that got me moving into the 48 width.
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2017, 05:27 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Liberating nylon strings from the "upper" class, which is where the word "classical" literally comes from, and making them available to the masses is a slow, yet worthy, task. Each point of agreement brings us one step closer to this goal.
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2017, 08:38 PM
Barb1 Barb1 is offline
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JimCA,
I am curious about the scale you ordered for your X7Nylon. I am about to order one and I'm tying to decide which scale to order and what will be the correct width of the neck for me. I find the neck of the RainSong NP12 a little narrow and prefer the width of the Blackbird Nylon Rider but the scale of the Blackbird Nylon Rider is too big for me while the scale of the Rainsong NP12 seems to be just right.
JimCA, please share the specs you have chosen. Thanks.
Barb
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  #12  
Old 03-02-2017, 10:45 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Barb,

Your original post on an X7 nylon was my inspiration for ordering one!

It seemed to me that people go crazy over the X7 steel-string because of it's playability and I think the 24" scale is an important part of that. Even though Emerald has done 650mm scale X7 nylon, I went with X7 steel-string specs, except for 1 7/8" nut, lighter soundboard, slotted headstock and nylon-style bridge. I have a Martin 18G nylon, 650mm scale which I love, but I'm excited about the extra couchiness of the X7 nylon I've ordered.

Jim
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2017, 01:47 PM
Barb1 Barb1 is offline
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Hi JIm,
Knowing that you ordered your X7 because of my post makes me happy!

When is your X7 supposed to arrive? I'd love to hear what you think of the 24" scale once you play it. I am thinking of going with 24.9 that Alistair suggested after I said I love the 630mm scale of my Kenny Hill Performance Torres sized guitar. Your nut size sounds just right!

I hope your X7 Nylon is everything you are looking for and more. Ok, maybe I am ready to place an order:-)
Barb
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2017, 04:48 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb1 View Post
Hi JIm,
Knowing that you ordered your X7 because of my post makes me happy!

When is your X7 supposed to arrive? I'd love to hear what you think of the 24" scale once you play it. I am thinking of going with 24.9 that Alistair suggested after I said I love the 630mm scale of my Kenny Hill Performance Torres sized guitar. Your nut size sounds just right!

I hope your X7 Nylon is everything you are looking for and more. Ok, maybe I am ready to place an order:-)
Barb
Good for you!

I have 2 months to go. The days are getting l-o--n---g----e-----r.

Jim
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  #15  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:39 AM
seamusknives seamusknives is offline
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I think that I understand why Blackbird went with the full 2" nut to appeal to hardcore classical players but think the majority of players would prefer the 1-7/8" nut that most "Crossovers offer. I like 1-7/8" nuts on both my nylon and steel stringed guitars and would like to keep that consistency with a C.F.
Nylon guitar.
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