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  #46  
Old 02-20-2020, 07:55 AM
Ed66 Ed66 is offline
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This is so subjective the only way I can answer is virtually any pro is better than me. To me that means yes in general.
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  #47  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:21 AM
BallisticSquid BallisticSquid is offline
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Originally Posted by roylor4 View Post
They are related, but different skills. I am an intermediate and play for pay (80-100 gigs a year). There are lots of guys that never leave their own living room that can outplay me by a country mile. Being a good musician and being a good entertainer are not the same thing.

Playing under pressure and playing relatively clean are part of it. Playing to your dog or couch is different than sitting in front of people and playing. Being a great player at home doesn't make you prepared to play in public. Only playing in public does that, just as playing scales over & over make you good at scales and leads.

Being an entertainer, being a better than average singer, at ease in front of a crowd takes practice and work.
This sums up my view and described me pretty well too . I think it's good for any musician to experience the performance aspect at some level. Music educators agree since performance is part of the curriculum, whether it be a recital or a school concert. When entertaining or playing in an ensemble, you are forced to play things that may not be of your choosing or are not your "strong suit". You have to play through your mistakes. Working through those situations makes you a better and more well rounded musician.

Entertaining is a totally different skillset. I am not an entertainer which is why my role in a band is to support the entertainer.
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  #48  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
How does one answer such a question?
In my mind I envision two bell-shaped curves, one for pros (on the right) and one for amateurs (on the left), roughly as shown below, but with a bit more overlap between the two...

Last edited by RP; 11-20-2021 at 07:06 AM.
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  #49  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:48 AM
cmac cmac is offline
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I think it's about a whole package of abilities.

For example, take the world of software development. There are people who do this at home as a hobby, and they may be very good at writing software.

A professional will, likewise, be good at writing software. But they will likely also have good skills in reading and understanding specifications, dealing with customers, understanding the commercial aspects of a project, working with a documentation process, following test metholodogies, and so on.

So what do we mean by "better musician"? To me, being a musician is more than just how well someone can play a guitar.

Musicianship also covers working with other band members, being disciplined in turning up on time for rehearsals, understanding the technology they use, working with in-house sound engineers, understanding how best to manage their income from playing, knowing what professional memberships and registrations are worth having, and so on.

I think in the professional realm all of that comes under "being a musician".

The amateur perspective, on the other hand, sees "being a musician" as being able to play an instrument.

So, if that's a good definition of "being a musician" then yes, a professional is much better at being a musician. Whether or not they are a better instrumentalist is a different thing.

That said, there will always be outliers. "I knew this guy... " type of thing. But in general if you were to swap the two around, a professional musician could sit on a sofa and noodle away quite happily. A hobbyist dropped into the world of professional musicianship would likely struggle a lot.
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  #50  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:59 AM
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The Op asked about professional musicians. There is a difference between being a professional musician and an entertainer that plays an instrument. There are many that look at their guitar playing as some kind of route to being an entertainer. As in playing guitar better will make them into an entertainer. The only route to success is to define your goals.
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  #51  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:16 AM
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Yes they are......
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  #52  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:17 AM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
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We could make some generalizations that would be worth nothing, but the level of your playing is the level of your playing - paid or not.

I worked as a full time musician before I started to teach. 5 hours a night, 6 nights a week (and underpaid if you ask me).

When I was teaching I became a weekend warrior, sometimes working double headers (and why is the second job always up a flight of stairs and with an hour of overtime at the end of the gig?).

Now I only play where people come to listen - so not so often. After 50+ years of gigging I've come to the point where I selfishly only want to play what I like.

So was I a better musician when I was full time?

But I can't imagine a time where I would never perform. Performance just seems to be the logical end to all that practice time.

So yes, I've heard some pretty mediocre players out working for money, but I've heard some amazing players perform. Are there amazing players who never perform? Probably, but I'm guessing not too many.
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  #53  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:18 AM
menhir menhir is offline
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Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
A friend of mine (a pro) once told me that "an amateur plays something over and over until they get it right. A professional plays it over and over until they get it right every single time". Does that make them a better "musician" (whatever that is)? I have no idea but maybe so.
This statement from early on in this thread really caught my eye. It's something I've been thinking about for a while as I'm practicing hard to get out playing again after a very long time off the stage.

Back when I was gigging I made very few non-recoverable* mistakes and never went on stage worrying about screwing up, even on the most difficult pieces.

Practicing on the recliner these days, I make way too many fluffs and fumbles, even on songs that I'm very familiar with. It's frustrating.

I wonder if the difference was my mind set. Knowing I am playing for an audience seems to sharpen my focus.

*Recoverable mistakes, on the other hand, are the mistakes that I was able to hide. The audience never knows I made them.
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  #54  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:27 AM
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I herd the quote as " amateurs play it until they "get it right" pros play it until they can't get it wrong". but more practiced only means more practiced, and does not equal "better" per se., which is totally subjective anyway, but another discussion.

In answer to the OP,,,, being "paid" and being "better" have no intrinsic causal relationship.
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  #55  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Doug View Post
if you get paid to make music does that make you a better musician than those who don't?
If you're getting paid, it's more a reflection of how entertaining you are rather than how good a musician you are. Neither talent alone nor stage presence alone makes one a great musical entertainer. Both must be present.

Another variable is songwriting. If you're writing compelling songs that hold people's interest and attention, you have a chance to be more entertaining than the person doing strictly covers of songs that are already well-known.
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  #56  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:52 AM
Skarsaune Skarsaune is offline
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I listened to two very interesting & relevant podcasts over the last couple of days: an interview with Red Volkaert and one with David Grissom. More electric players, but both consummate pros. Gigging 7 days a week for years, playing sessions, etc etc. True Tone Lounge was the podcast - it's worth seeking out.

I attended a class with Livingston Taylor at Swannanoa the year I went. Very interesting, I bought his book afterwards.

I'm more on the entertainer side - there are any number of guitar players that can smoke me. The periods when I'm playing multiple 3 hour gigs a week, my musicianship certainly gets better.
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  #57  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:20 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Playing gigs makes you better than you'd be just playing at home, but there's still all sorts of levels of musicianship at the pro level.

Some types of music simply don't require you to be "good," but if you want to keep gigging, you need to be "good at what you do."
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  #58  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:33 AM
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If we want to find the best guitarists, as a whole, we should probably turn toward studio musicians. The gigging, performing guitarist gets away with a certain amount of sloppiness in a live setting, getting away with mistakes that would put the studio musician out of a job. And studio musicians often have to learn to play complex pieces on short notice, pieces that the songwriter doesn't have the virtuosity to adequately perform.
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  #59  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:37 AM
Skarsaune Skarsaune is offline
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Originally Posted by bufflehead View Post
If we want to find the best guitarists, as a whole, we should probably turn toward studio musicians. The gigging, performing guitarist gets away with a certain amount of sloppiness in a live setting, getting away with mistakes that would put the studio musician out of a job. And studio musicians often have to learn to play complex pieces on short notice, pieces that the songwriter doesn't have the virtuosity to adequately perform.
Agreed. Come in cold, read the chart, get it perfect on the first take.
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  #60  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:39 AM
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At last a topic I know something about.

"are professional players better musicians than non-professionals?"

I'd have to say the answer is, "No."

I guess you could say I'm technically a "professional" because I get paid and play a decent amount of gigs (I also have a real job) but I'm a very basic player. I strum and sing songs people recognize.

I can't solo, can't play fingerstyle, can't improvise, or do much of anything besides strum and sing songs. My "practice" involves memorizing the lyrics to three-chord country and rock songs.

I know people who play circles around me but they can't stand in front of a crowd and play and sing a song on their own.

What I lack in skill I try to make up by being prompt, courteous, and professional.
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