Travis Picking and palm muting

[nickv6]

Thanks for the info Larry. But the one in the video isn't a Martin repro. And it has Bresh on the headstock so it surely must be a custom made thing? It looks very ornate; I can't see Martin making it. Actually the last Martin Bigsby model I saw here in UK didn't even have the right pickguard shape, nor was it the right scale length. It was really peculiar.
Nick

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by JerrysGuitarBar

I've also heard Ralph McTell and Donovan call it "clawhammer".

Right - I remember that was a common term for fingerstyle back in the 1960s in the UK, but not strictly accurate.
Clawhammer is a specific banjo technique - as I guess you know, but just in case, here it is applied to guitar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIPj2281hn8
It got attached to the normal kind of folk-blues fingerpicking because some UK players learned various fingerstyles from visiting US banjo players and just kind of lumped them all together.

Originally Posted by JerrysGuitarBar

There is no rule of thumb for this,

Ha! I get it!

Originally Posted by JerrysGuitarBar

so I'll make one up
If you're playing blues/ragtime with alternating thumb, mute the bass. If you're playing folk or folk rock (McTell, Donovan, Paul Simon, Tom Paxton etc.) don't mute the bass.

True.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by nickv6

Thanks for the info Larry. But the one in the video isn't a Martin repro. And it has Bresh on the headstock so it surely must be a custom made thing? It looks very ornate; I can't see Martin making it. Actually the last Martin Bigsby model I saw here in UK didn't even have the right pickguard shape, nor was it the right scale length. It was really peculiar.
Nick

Hi nick

I don't know, it might have been his dad's. I knew it wasn't the Martin remake because they didn't issue those till 2017 I believe, and I've seen Thom playing it for years.

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Bunny



Here is a link to Thom Bresh (Merle Travis's son) who played with his dad, and knows his style in-n-out. Thom is an amazing fingerstyler, and Travis picker.







This is not even about palm muting, but you cannot disconnect them from Merle Travis' styling.



Here he is rambling for TrueFire in Feb 2019 about using Thumb Picks. It was not about how they relate to Travis picking, but as he demonstrates his dad's style, the palm mute is employed all the way through. If you just watch all 11 minutes you will see the palm mute demonstrated numerous times from the son of the guy who pioneered it.



And you'll get a history lesson of several great pickers like Jerry Reed, Chet Atkins, ad others. Thom's hand position manages the palm mute anchored near the bridge and floating around up the string bed.



Hope this adds to the discussion…

That’s brilliant thanks so much for all this wonderful information . A real education. Starting to see the wood from the trees.

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by JerrysGuitarBar

I've also heard Ralph McTell and Donovan call it "clawhammer".



There is no rule of thumb for this, so I'll make one up

If you're playing blues/ragtime with alternating thumb, mute the bass. If you're playing folk or folk rock (McTell, Donovan, Paul Simon, Tom Paxton etc.) don't mute the bass.

I like that Jerry. Makes sense to me and I play those styles. Many thanks

[RodB]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

There are also different ways to mute strings. I don't really palm mute much when playing alternating-bass picking, but I'll often dampen the string by letting up with my fretting finger after plucking it. It's a different, in-between kind of sound: you don't get the muted "chunk" on the notes, but you do eliminate the sustain that can get in the way of the melody/other strings.

I tend to do the same. Whilst I agree with JonPR that palm muting is an integral part of authentic Travis Picking, it isn’t so for all alternating bass music. Ragtime for instance, can work well with just good fretting hand technique and a restrained picking thumb.

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by islandguitar

Bunny, I only have a few of my tunes(fingerstyle) where I palm mute. But, it's really great for when you do need it. As they've said, no rules, other than what your ear is telling you.
Also, I've found that palm muting the lower strings really helps your ear, and in turn your technique when working on alternating bass work with the picking. I think that's true with either a "boom chuck" with 3 alternating bass strings, or just two bass strings........something about the palm mute sound when you're playing that lets you translate that picking for any alternating bass. At least that's my experience.

Many thanks for that and the lovely piece of your music.

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Hi Bunny,

It depends. I had the same question when I started finger-picking a few years ago. Certainly there are styles that cry out for it (Travis, Atkins, Hurt).

I found it difficult to do for quite a while, so I didn't. Depending on the tune and the guitar and your attack this may sound ok, or not. Not muting can result in a bass heavy sound, but I can think of at least person I know who rarely mutes and he sounds great. If you intend to use a thumb-pick then I think muting becomes more important, maybe required.

The good news is that this is something that will feel like second nature if you stick with it for a little while. It may sound horrible to start with, but it does get a lot better with time and practice.

Congratulations on exploring this style. I think you will find it very rewarding!

Thanks for the music Bob. Really enjoying it.

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by TBman

I used to palm mute a lot. I just rest my wrist on the bridge sort of and it just happens.

Barry wonderful rendition of that fine tune. Many thanks. Was that with the Avalon?

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Bunny

Here is a link to Thom Bresh (Merle Travis's son) who played with his dad, and knows his style in-n-out. Thom is an amazing fingerstyler, and Travis picker.



This is not even about palm muting, but you cannot disconnect them from Merle Travis' styling.

Here he is rambling for TrueFire in Feb 2019 about using Thumb Picks. It was not about how they relate to Travis picking, but as he demonstrates his dad's style, the palm mute is employed all the way through. If you just watch all 11 minutes you will see the palm mute demonstrated numerous times from the son of the guy who pioneered it.

And you'll get a history lesson of several great pickers like Jerry Reed, Chet Atkins, ad others. Thom's hand position manages the palm mute anchored near the bridge and floating around up the string bed.

Hope this adds to the discussion…

Loved that video. many thanks. I got some of those Kelly picks too. There the similarities end!!!

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I regard palm muting as part of what defines "Travis style". If it's not palm muted, I just call it "alternating bass".

I.e., the broad name for the style of playing is "alternating bass", although I've also seen it called "Piedmont style" and "thumb style" (because the thumb leads by playing all the beats). When you damp the bass strings, then you're producing a sound more like Merle Travis's (and Chet Atkins and so on), which he got from players like Mississippi John Hurt, Blind Boy Fuller or Blind Blake anyway.
In fact "Piedmont style" also usually damps the bass, so is not essentially any different from Travis style.

I have nothing against Merle Travis btw! I just hate the implication that he invented that style of playing (and I'm sure he wouldn't have claimed that) ... In fact, the one original personal detail he added was to play with thumb and index only, resting the other 3 fingers on the scratchplate. So if you use two or more fingers, you're not playing "Travis style" anyway! You're playing "Piedmont style", "thumb style", or plain old "alternating bass".

Nice documentary here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwmYScVhyAs
- and there you see Etta Baker playing "Travis style" (index only - did she get it from Travis? or from her daddy before that?), but not damping the bass.

Thanks for the documentary. Really good. Getting so much inspiration

[jseth]

Lots of accurate information already... there really is NO absolute, regarding palm muting...

One thing I do is to "partially" palm mute... by "bouncing" my palm slightly off the strings (especially the lower registers). Gives that "palm mute" sound, but with more definition and volume than a full palm mute.

I will frequently vary my use of that technique (both full and partial) from each time I play the same tune... depends on what I'm wanting to hear at the time. I pllay with a flatpick between index and thumb, then use my other fingers for picking, whether Travis-style or grabbing clusters of notes simultaneously. I'm fond of playing thirds and sixths while using palm muting for more percussive tones and rhythms... although I can switch back and forth between strumming/single note and picking, it takes a refined touch to have the volume balance between them all... that's something I work at frequently and am constantly aware of... especially when coupled with the adrenaline "rush" when I'm performing!

[Bunny64]

Originally Posted by jseth

Lots of accurate information already... there really is NO absolute, regarding palm muting...

One thing I do is to "partially" palm mute... by "bouncing" my palm slightly off the strings (especially the lower registers). Gives that "palm mute" sound, but with more definition and volume than a full palm mute.

I will frequently vary my use of that technique (both full and partial) from each time I play the same tune... depends on what I'm wanting to hear at the time. I pllay with a flatpick between index and thumb, then use my other fingers for picking, whether Travis-style or grabbing clusters of notes simultaneously. I'm fond of playing thirds and sixths while using palm muting for more percussive tones and rhythms... although I can switch back and forth between strumming/single note and picking, it takes a refined touch to have the volume balance between them all... that's something I work at frequently and am constantly aware of... especially when coupled with the adrenaline "rush" when I'm performing!

Thanks for that. That's an amazing skill to flat pick and fingerpick at the same time. I think I have seen Richard Thompson play that way. Maybe somewhere down the line I will try that. I am also getting better at using thumbpicks and all in all i feel i am starting to get a groove going now and it is very encouraging. The palm muting feels weird at first and getting the hand in a position whereby you mute the lower strings and then play the higher strings with fingers takes time.

[Mr Picky]

I only attempted palm-muting properly recently after a lifetime of playing solo fingerstyle. I just didn't play that style of music previously, but working my way through Dan C Holloways lessons I wanted to learn his version of Folsom Prison Blues. (Most of his arrangements aren't palm muted and are similar to my normal style.)

My natural right-hand setup is straight forearm through a 'straight' relaxed wrist with the hand nearer the neck side of the soundhole, more of a classical setup. To switch to palm muting I had to obviously move my hand back to the saddle, but the hard bit was rotating my hand upwards and to the left to get access to all the strings, creating an angle at the wrist. This restricts movement a lot (as well as the hand being 'anchored'!) and took about 4 weeks to get used to. It now feels completely natural and has opened up a whole new style of playing....

From this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZozKO1Hrea8

To this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNGYRKhGHYo

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Bunny64

Ok so I am looking into Travis picking. Can anyone enlighten me about palm muting whilst Travis picking?

Does one always palm mute in this style or is it a case of only when you want a more percussive sound?

Any thoughts and advice welcome.

Bunny,
First and foremost: It's NOT done with the palm, although it's been referred to as 'palm muting' forever.

It's done with the side of hand down from the pinky.

Depending on ones physical build, guitar type, playing position, etc, there is going to be some variation to a degree.

Secondly, and perhaps more important: It's like the 'mute' pedal on a piano. It's not meant to be depressed and left 'on', unless you're trying to imitate a Chet Atkins recording from way back before he switched to nylon strings.

Here's fairly decent demonstration where you can see my hand position and hear the bass notes juxtaposed to the melody notes.



Keep workin'!

HE