One reason I believe I don't play well

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think you did a fine job of laying yourself bare and putting it all out there with that post.

As for needing to put yourself into the performance, yes and no. I'm not a big proponent of trying to make people feel something specific...I feel like if I choose material that connects with me, and I play it well, that's enough to connect to an audience, without telling them what to think or feel.

Without hearing you play, I can guess two things: 1. You're better than you think you are, and 2. It's your own self doubt that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So I would say, go back to why you wanted to make noise with this wood and steel box in the first place. Play something you like, and just focus on making a good sound with your fingers...don't worry about putting yourself into it, let the music breathe and be it's own thing. Free yourself from the idea that everything has to mean something deep to be of value. Sometimes music can just be beautiful for the sake of being beautiful...Art for the sake of Art.

The world is already a better place because you chose to bring music to it.

Jeff's response here is really well done, really beautifully done.

I might add my own 2¢ to augment what Jeff had to say. My son took my grand daughter to a live audition recently to a prestigious music institute back East. It was a really big deal for both of them. My son told me that he watched an interview with the head of the classical music program before going and she said that she was looking for singers who could tell the story of the music while also singing technically well.

I think the bottom line of that "telling a story" is not so much that you have to bare your soul, but that your performance of the music should allow the story of the song to come through somehow. It's hard to learn how to do this, but it's a goal to strive for.

I hope this helps a little.

- Glenn

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Chas007

It is my personal belief that when you play and you play well, you put a piece of your soul/yourself into it.

Yes, in the sense that you feel completely involved in it.

Originally Posted by Chas007

Bare with me as I try to explain this.

I think you mean "bear" with me.

Originally Posted by Chas007

And keep in mind that these are just my feelings, not fact, not anyone's truth, but mine. And I'm not sure I understand it.

I feel it's a bit like playing naked in front of whoever is listening.

Hey, maybe you did mean "bare"!

Originally Posted by Chas007

Or totally being your true unfiltered self in a very public setting.

Whoah. That's much tougher. Music can - and should - get you there, but it won't happen quickly. It's something to aim for.

Originally Posted by Chas007

Being completely vulnerable and helpless.

I understand what you mean, but obviously that isn't the goal. If you do feel (metaphorically) naked, you don't feel ashamed or helpless. You might feel a little vulnerable, but mainly you feel proud and confident. This is your truth.

Originally Posted by Chas007

I'm not very good at putting my feelings into words, maybe that's a guy thing, I don't know.

Yeah, it's a guy thing... Relax, we've all got it.

Originally Posted by Chas007

I feel I'm a very weird and unique person.

Yeah, that's a guy thing too . In fact, it's a universal teenage feeling, and for some (mostly guys I suspect) it persists into adult life.
Being a musician tends to compound it, because most people are not musicians, and don't understand what it means to be a musician. They think it means you must have some special "talent", which obviously makes you "weird" (not "like them"). And if you keep doing it despite thinking you're not talented (as most of us do ), that just makes you feel weirder. Right?

Originally Posted by Chas007

I have never found a "kindred spirit" in my life. I feel that when I have dropped the curtain, so to speak and let people glimps a bit of the real me, I've either been ridiculed, made fun of or made to feel like I was the only person in the world that was that way. And so I can't relax, turn loose and put my heart and soul into what I'm sharing with someone else.

Right, that's a very familiar feeling. I doubt there is anyone who has not felt that way at some time.
And yes, I suspect it's a guy thing more then a girl thing. Guys are supposed to be "strong", "in control", "masterful", and so on. It's a struggle, right?

When it comes to music, I was very lucky (I realise with hindsight) in that my closest schoolfriends were musicians. I wasn't a musician at first, but - being shy - it meant that getting into music was a way in to social interaction (alongside the people I felt closest to), not something that separated me from other people. I didn't mind feeling different from non-musicians, because playing music for me was like being in a gang, being cool. Who cares about the squares? Music was my cloak, IOW. Not a way of exposing myself at all - except in the metaphorical sense of playing with my friends. We didn't share personal stuff (because we were all guys! dammit!) but we shared that mysterious musical experience of communication at another level. IOW - again this is a realisation with hindsight - I discovered how music is in a way a kind of "out of body" experience. In a sense, you "become the music". You are not yourself any more.

IOW, it's a misunderstanding that music is about "expressing yourself". The main thing you are doing is becoming a conduit for the expression in the music. You are a messenger: opening yourself up, but in order for the music to pass through you, and out to others.
Naturally, your persona colours the music on its way through (from the page, through your mind, and out through your fingers). You play it your way (however much you might try to sound like the original!), so you are expressing "your self" in that respect. You tune in to what you feel the music is saying, because you recognise what it is saying. That's how you play "with feeling". The music is saying something that you want to say, a feeling that can be expressed only by music - not by words.

Musicians who don't recognise the feeling in the music can still play, but they will sound kind of mechanical or detached. It's a common thing in professional music! The players are skilled enough to reproduce the notes perfectly well, but - at least in a large group - they don't have to feel it deeply. It's better if they can, of course - and the good ones do - but it doesn't happen every time.

Originally Posted by Chas007

My first marriage ended in a divorce and I never have forgotten what up until this time in my life was the worst feeling I have ever experienced. That feeling of realization that the one person that you had laid yourself bare to, heart and soul and shared some of your most intimate self with was now your enemy. Talk about Sun Tzu. The worst I've ever felt in my life.

Again, I understand, and I'm sure many (probably most!) have had the same experience and the same feeling.
It's normal for us guys to open up to our most intimate partner, because we don't (and can't) open up to our male friends. And the longer (and more exclusive) that relationship is, the harder it obviously is when it ends. I've never been married, but had a handful of relationships just as close (some lasting longer than many marriages do), and every one was always my closest friend at the time, by far.

Originally Posted by Chas007

I've heard it said that "every man has three hearts: one in his mouth, for the world to know; one in his chest, just for his friends; and a secret heart buried deep where no one can find it." It's that third heart that I believe you need to put a bit of in your performance.

I'm not sure I'd characterise it quite in that way, but we certainly do compartmentalize our feelings and modes of expression - simply because we feel vulnerable, and need to be in control of ourselves. We build a shell, and control which parts of ourselves - and how much - we allow to emerge, according to the situation.

Originally Posted by Chas007

In a nut shell, I feel I can't be me.

Right - because you're in the nutshell! (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

I obviously can't help with advice on personal relationships, but the answer to your musical situation is to get out and meet other musicians. I realise that's an annoyingly common thing people say when you have a marriage or long relationship break down: "get out and meet other people!" Yeah, if only it was that easy!

But the thing with musicians, is we are a promiscuous bunch! We're not jealous! We will happily play with loads of other musicians at the same time, and happily move from circle to circle. That's because it's a social activity - a little like sport in a sense (getting together to kick a ball around), except in music you don't have to be macho! I.e., music has the same kind of "camaraderie" vibe as team sports, the social bonding, but without the competitive element. With music, we really are "all in it together".

So - find local open mics or jam sessions, as many as you can, and go to all of them. Not necessarily to play at first, just to hang out. Pick up the vibes to decide where you fit in best. (You'll find musicians better than you, and worse than you. The inspiring thing is when you see musicians worse than you getting up and playing with no hint of embarrasment. Hey, if they can do it ... .) And - as a bonus - women go to those things too! Hey, some women are even musicians!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Chas007

From what I've read so far, some believe I suffer from depression and self hatred and while those are probably true, we don't need to go into that here I don't think.

It sounded like you are there. . . .

Originally Posted by Chas007

That's not exactly what I'm talking about here.

Okay. Fair enough!

Originally Posted by Chas007

It's more a thing of where I can't relax and let myself go with my playing and the singing that (I try to do).

It's more like I'm thinking people won't like the way I hold my mouth or sit or rock with the rhythm.

I see. I've worked through that. Here are a few things I've done. Maybe one will work for you:

1. Be fatalistic. I used to get paralyzing stage fright. Then one day I realized that no one cares. It's not all about me. Other people are too busy worrying about their own stuff to care whether the dork on stage is a wunderkind.

So now I just assume that I'm going to make a rich hash of everything. Then when I make a mistake or botch a song, I just say two magic words that make it all go away: "Oh, well!"

2. Send an alter ego onstage. I got tired of dreading going onstage. Then I had an idea: Imagine a guy who's everything I'm not, and send him onstage while I stay in the audience and enjoy the show. He even has a name: "Neon" Leon Fullerton, a tall, lanky, good-looking, slow-talking Texan with an easy-going drawl, a friendly patter, a sly glint in his eye, and a way with women.

Objectively, I know the audience doesn't see him, but I do. And hey, maybe it is all about me, after all.

3. Play with other people. It doesn't matter whether they're better or worse musicians than I am. They should just be people I'd enjoy hanging out with if we weren't making music.

4. Find your sweet spot, and make it your anchor. For me it's songwriting. So that's my base camp when I work on my music. Even though I play a lot of covers, too, I rewrite them to suit my style.

5. Practice my sweet butt off! Not just the guitar. The words, the body language, the between-song banter. No one is a natural. That's a myth. The superstars all have one thing in common: They're obsessed.

Originally Posted by Chas007

Not to mention that I'm not good at either playing or singing.

Me neither. See 5 above.

Originally Posted by Chas007

But it's not people right now, I mean I think I would like to share this with people some day, but for now it's just me and the dogs and I still can't let myself get lost in what I'm doing, if that makes any sense.

It does. Here's what matters: Do you enjoy making music, or do you just like the idea of playing music?

I know plenty of people who own guitars but never pick them up. They're good decoration, of course, but those folks will never get comfortable playing. Even picking it up for five minutes a day would help them get somewhere, but they don't.

So if you enjoy playing, just do it. It doesn't have to be for a non-canine audience. Like Baba Ram Das said: Be here now. Enjoy it in the present, and don't think about your progress of lack of it.

Originally Posted by Chas007

And yes I do believe it creates a self fulfilling proficy. I can imagine how Joe Cocker must have felt when he started and I will never be a Joe Cocker, Lol.

I did start listening to the audio book Steppenwolf. Lol, we're on a music site talking about music and I assumed it was going to be about the band Steppenwolf or it's lead singer. I am enjoying it though, so I plan to finish it.

Heh heh. I think he wrote it for folks like us. The Magic Theatre — For madmen only — The price of admission: Your mind!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by JonPR

. . . Relax, we've all got it. . . .

Actually, lots of people don't. For instance, I've read that a lot of successful businesspeople don't indulge self-reflection, which is what makes them such bores.

Likewise, extreme extroverts don't think about themselves much. They get their energy from interacting with others. That's why they exhaust introverts: They suck us dry. Narcissists are likewise strangers to self-loathing. Psychopaths only think about advancing whatever their goals are.

Good thoughts, otherwise. Just chimed in on that little bit so Chaz007 wouldn't start to think he's too much like everyone else — and so he knows he's in good company, nonetheless — different in a good way.

Another thought for Chaz: There's a dirty little secret society keeps from us all: Depression isn't usually a mental illness. It's often a rational response to an irrational world. In a crazy world, being one of the sane people can drive you nuts.

[Chas007]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I discovered how music is in a way a kind of "out of body" experience. In a sense, you "become the music". You are not yourself any more.

IOW, it's a misunderstanding that music is about "expressing yourself". The main thing you are doing is becoming a conduit for the expression in the music. You are a messenger: opening yourself up, but in order for the music to pass through you, and out to others.
Naturally, your persona colours the music on its way through (from the page, through your mind, and out through your fingers). You play it your way (however much you might try to sound like the original!), so you are expressing "your self" in that respect. You tune in to what you feel the music is saying, because you recognise what it is saying. That's how you play "with feeling". The music is saying something that you want to say, a feeling that can be expressed only by music - not by words.

Musicians who don't recognise the feeling in the music can still play, but they will sound kind of mechanical or detached.

YES! That's it! You guys are so much smarter than me. Now "bear" with me a little bit more. :-)
I'm an old guy now, but when I was younger I earned a black belt in Shotokan karate. I once participated in a tournament kumite/kata. A whole gymnasium full of people, I was scared ****less, but at the same time I was very, very much alive. When I started the kumite the world shrank and it was just me and the other guy I was sparring with. During the kata portion, the world once again shrank and I disappeared into the kata. I won a trophy that day in kata/forms. A real happy day for me.

I want to do that with music. I want to dissappear into it. I want to meld with it, become one with it. :-)
Now, I'm just a robot, mechanically reproducing sounds.

[Chas007]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

There's a dirty little secret society keeps from us all: Depression isn't usually a mental illness. It's often a rational response to an irrational world. In a crazy world, being one of the sane people can drive you nuts.

Yep, I'm not depressed, crazy, or nuts, I'm a realist. :-)

[BoxCar_Joe]

Originally Posted by Birdbrain

The best acoustic space I've ever played and sang at was an octagonal, metal picnic shelter at a public park. The roof was like a big speaker cone, beaming perfectly amplified sound back down to you. Now I want one for my house.

In Central Park, the Parks Department built a wooden covered seating area behind Belvedere Castle (yes we have a castle).

I've played there a few times but I feel like I'm imposing on others so I may go elsewhere. Picking the correct location is important.

[rllink]

Originally Posted by Chas007

From what I've read so far, some believe I suffer from depression and self hatred and while those are probably true, we don't need to go into that here I don't think.
That's not exactly what I'm talking about here. It's more a thing of where I can't relax and let myself go with my playing and the singing that (I try to do).

It's more like I'm thinking people won't like the way I hold my mouth or sit or rock with the rhythm. Not to mention that I'm not good at either playing or singing. But it's not people right now, I mean I think I would like to share this with people some day, but for now it's just me and the dogs and I still can't let myself get lost in what I'm doing, if that makes any sense. And yes I do believe it creates a self fulfilling proficy. I can imagine how Joe Cocker must have felt when he started and I will never be a Joe Cocker, Lol.

I did start listening to the audio book Steppenwolf. Lol, we're on a music site talking about music and I assumed it was going to be about the band Steppenwolf or it's lead singer. I am enjoying it though, so I plan to finish it.

You put it out here for comment so mine is that it appears to me you have a rather low self esteem. I would suggest you see a mental health professional. You shouldn't have to live with those feelings.

[Chas007]

Originally Posted by rllink

You put it out here for comment so mine is that it appears to me you have a rather low self esteem. I would suggest you see a mental health professional. You shouldn't have to live with those feelings.

In retrospect I shouldn't have opened up quite so much. My gosh if I have to fix all of my issues I might as well quit now :-) I'm old, been dealing all my life. By the time I get myself all straightened out it would be time for me to check out. I'm going to stick with guitar feelings, before some kind soul has me committed.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Chas007

In retrospect I shouldn't have opened up quite so much. My gosh if I have to fix all of my issues I might as well quit now :-) I'm old, been dealing all my life. By the time I get myself all straightened out it would be time for me to check out. I'm going to stick with guitar feelings, before some kind soul has me committed.

You know, don't sweat that. Believe me, everyone here has a list of issues they could make. I know I do.

But yeah, take it back to the music. We don't even know what stuff you like to do? Instrumentals? Folk songs? Acoustic covers of Napalm Death tunes?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Chas007

YES! That's it! You guys are so much smarter than me. Now "bear" with me a little bit more. :-)
I'm an old guy now, but when I was younger I earned a black belt in Shotokan karate. I once participated in a tournament kumite/kata. A whole gymnasium full of people, I was scared ****less, but at the same time I was very, very much alive. When I started the kumite the world shrank and it was just me and the other guy I was sparring with. During the kata portion, the world once again shrank and I disappeared into the kata. I won a trophy that day in kata/forms. A real happy day for me.

I want to do that with music. I want to dissappear into it. I want to meld with it, become one with it. :-)
Now, I'm just a robot, mechanically reproducing sounds.

Being "in the zone" or "in flow" is a result of a lot of boring practice I'm afraid to say! Lots of robot has to be endured. We are trying to drive very intricate physical movements, with an auditory feedback loop, into the non conscious. And then, under pressure, trust that they are tucked away where we consciously can't recall them but our non-conscious has them wired.

But, the good news is that if you can get "in flow" when driving - such as being able to hold a conversation with a passenger whilst controlling a vehicle and reading the road in real time - then you absolutely will be able to get into the zone when playing guitar. You just need to think about how many hours you have put in driving to appreciate how many hours you need to put in playing guitar to reach the same level of non-conscious competence.

Time slows down when you are in flow. Your conscious cognitive capacity is able to pay attention to other things while your non-conscious "drives the car".

Don't see being robotic as a negative - see it as creating the building blocks for future flow.

And try a metronome daily for at least some of your practice. It trains you to lift your mind away from your physical movements and helps drive them into your non-conscious quicker. Lots of very good players don't use a metronome for timing, they use it as a tool to help them non-consciously memorize a piece they are learning.

[Chas007]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Being "in the zone" or "in flow" is a result of a lot of boring practice I'm afraid to say!

Thank you, lots of good stuff in your comments.

[tomh]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Being "in the zone" or "in flow" is a result of a lot of boring practice I'm afraid to say! Lots of robot has to be endured. We are trying to drive very intricate physical movements, with an auditory feedback loop, into the non conscious. And then, under pressure, trust that they are tucked away where we consciously can't recall them but our non-conscious has them wired.

But, the good news is that if you can get "in flow" when driving - such as being able to hold a conversation with a passenger whilst controlling a vehicle and reading the road in real time - then you absolutely will be able to get into the zone when playing guitar. You just need to think about how many hours you have put in driving to appreciate how many hours you need to put in playing guitar to reach the same level of non-conscious competence.

Time slows down when you are in flow. Your conscious cognitive capacity is able to pay attention to other things while your non-conscious "drives the car".

Don't see being robotic as a negative - see it as creating the building blocks for future flow.

And try a metronome daily for at least some of your practice. It trains you to lift your mind away from your physical movements and helps drive them into your non-conscious quicker. Lots of very good players don't use a metronome for timing, they use it as a tool to help them non-consciously memorize a piece they are learning.

One thing I have learned in life is if another human being can learn to do something well, so can I.

I picked up guitar again about 3 years ago, after a 20 year lay off, and I was crap back then. I did not have the discipline to put the work in that was needed, and I thought I was some kind of songwriter with something to say ( I didn't) (and don't).

Anyway I have been playing, practicing and learning to sing, and I have made great strides just by repetition ad nauseum and pushing myself to always learn. When I look at where I came from I am doing great. When I look at where I want to be, I have along way to go, but if I die tomorrow, I am happy with where I am.

Just recently after these several years of lots of playing/practice, I am getting to where I can play fills and runs out of my head without thinking about them. It's like all the input of boring scales and repetitions of bass runs and simple licks is now to the point where somewhere inside me, it mixes up into music and comes out. I can't wait to see where it goes.

The majority of my playing lately is just exploration while I sing to see what fits where and makes my simple strumming more interesting. For the first time in my musical life I am able to approach a "flow" state and just let things come out.

I think learning to sing also keeps me from hyper focusing on guitar so it does not get too boring doing repetitions, and the same type of practice I do on guitar I do with my voice, it is an instrument too.

Way back I set myself a goal of being good enough of a singer/player to seriously entertain friends on the back porch. I think having a goal is important to growing in any subject. And then using that goal to chart out the path of how to get there.

I am no spring chicken either, but I realized at some point there is no rush to get to a certain point by a certain time, just to have fun and immerse myself in the process of learning.

When you feel like it is time to put yourself out there, maybe you could record a video and put on social media for your friends and family as a way of easing into it before going live. Although I find going live is easier for some reason.... but I have not done a lot of that either.

I do online lessons with Bryan Sutton and Michael Daves. I usually cannot do a one take video for Bryan, but for singing with Michael it is never a problem. But maybe that is another way you could ease into performing. The video exchange process is very helpful and the instructors are great at helping you where you are.

I also listen to recordings of what I want to do to the point of getting sick of the particular songs. But it gets it in your DNA and I think helps me on the road to automaticity, which is what we are talking about. When automaticity is reached, you can concentrate on the expression.

I'll shut up now

[schmalex]

For me the main stimuli for getting comfortable with singing / performing in front of other people was that back in 2017 my girlfriend at the time (now wife) was a part-time karaoke host (KJ) at several bars, which meant being out singing karaoke 2-3 nights a week. I often was just thrown in as a place-filler if there were gaps in the karaoke list, and I was often asked to sing songs I had only ever heard before and never actually tried singing. Sometimes I didn't even know what I would be singing until I was already standing on the stage.

It was great practice for performing in front of strangers.

[Mr. Jelly]

There are different stages of performing for others. There's the point where you do a song pretty good most times and attempt to do it for people. Another point is when you have the song down and you have played it numerus times for people where fear starts to turn to excitement. Eventually you come to the point where you are somewhat comfortable and start performing the song trying to get a reaction from an audience. That turns to actually performing a song to be entertaining. Then some come to the point of actually performing like a professional musician. Finally, there is the prospect of performing like a star or artist. That is where you have the vocal and your instrument down. Instead of rendering the song you focus completely on every note and syllable with purpose. Every note, thought and movement are done with purpose, dedicated to fulfilling the highest potential of performing the song and achieving its envisioned magic. Believe me that is work. Performing is a heroic self-reflection. Done well it's like standing psychologically naked on stage. People sense anything less than being true and real and honest. Few have the fortitude to even try to accomplish it.