Coping with strings self-oscillating in high SPL environments

[JDFort]

I recently played out at higher than normal SPL levels (4 piece in a bar room setting). When we were asked to turn up, I had problems with my low E and A strings ringing on their own as if they being played with a bow. This is different from the normal feedback from the resonance of the guitar body, and impossible to effectively notch out because it wasn't any specific frequency. Any note on those two strings, fretted or open would begin to ring on their own if not plucked.

Aside from the normal anti-feedback actions (notching, phase inversion, sound-hole plug and disabling the Anthem's internal microphone) does anyone have any tips on dampening the unplayed strings aside from palm muting? I watch videos of people like Billy Strings playing at high volume without damping the strings or soundhole plugs. Am I the only one who experiences this problem? I'm supposed to play there again next weekend and I'm planning on taking my OM with a sound hole plug rather than the dreadnought and carbon topped jumbo I had with me last time. But I wonder if there's anything else I can do aside from change my playing style to allow palm muting the strings that aren't being played.

I think scalloped braces aren't helping me any here. but my straight braced D-28 (which currently has no pickup) has a more bass-resonant top than anything else I own, so I don't think that's the solution either. I think I'm beginning to see why so many of the pros are using plywood guitars assembled with epoxy. lol Do I just need to switch back to using a mic for the guitar?

[shufflebeat]

It's been a while since I played an electric guitar in anger but I remember it takes quite a lot of energy to make a string resonate on it's own. That would suggest the guitar top and chamber are a significant element of the system.

In the olden days, before high tech solutions like rubber soundhole plugs it wasn't unknown for an acoustic guitar to be stuffed with absorbant material to kill the chamber resonances and restrict top movement.

I don't know what the physics literature suggests on the subject but couple of XXL (FB) T-shirts should be enough.

[L20A]

Roll off some bass in the mixer/amp/pa and you should be good to go.

[Gordon Currie]

What you describe sounds like monitor feedback. Assuming you were using them, were they louder than usual for you?

If yes, rolling off bass in the monitor only can help.

I've had this happen when on stages that are used to electric bands. The monitors are too hot for acoustic guitars.

[Mandobart]

This is one reason why acoustic guitars are not recommended for high stage volumes. They're designed to do what you're describing.

[b1j]

Probably unrelated, but ever notice what happens when you try out guitars in rooms with lots of guitars hanging on the wall? Hit a G chard hard and mute it right away. You get a chorus of D, G, and B strings ringing out from every direction.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

This is one reason why acoustic guitars are not recommended for high stage volumes. They're designed to do what you're describing.

I strongly recommend acoustic guitars for high stage volumes, and indeed, high stage volumes for acoustic guitars.

It's so-ooo cool, and easily achieved with good advice and minimal spend.

[varmonter]

A soundhole pickup will work alot better
In that environ.its your piezo that's th issue.
picking up vibrations from the bass guitar
and its own self and amplifying.
As a soundhole pup is magnetic
It doesnt pickup body vibrations like
the piezo does..

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by JDFort

I recently played out at higher than normal SPL levels (4 piece in a bar room setting). When we were asked to turn up, I had problems with my low E and A strings ringing on their own as if they being played with a bow. This is different from the normal feedback from the resonance of the guitar body, and impossible to effectively notch out because it wasn't any specific frequency. Any note on those two strings, fretted or open would begin to ring on their own if not plucked.

Aside from the normal anti-feedback actions (notching, phase inversion, sound-hole plug and disabling the Anthem's internal microphone) does anyone have any tips on dampening the unplayed strings aside from palm muting? I watch videos of people like Billy Strings playing at high volume without damping the strings or soundhole plugs. Am I the only one who experiences this problem? I'm supposed to play there again next weekend and I'm planning on taking my OM with a sound hole plug rather than the dreadnought and carbon topped jumbo I had with me last time. But I wonder if there's anything else I can do aside from change my playing style to allow palm muting the strings that aren't being played.

I think scalloped braces aren't helping me any here. but my straight braced D-28 (which currently has no pickup) has a more bass-resonant top than anything else I own, so I don't think that's the solution either. I think I'm beginning to see why so many of the pros are using plywood guitars assembled with epoxy. lol Do I just need to switch back to using a mic for the guitar?

It's an age-old, unavoidable problem.

Plugged-in Jazz players were the first to encounter it, and their first response was developed by George Van Epps:

http://www.vintagearchtop.com/van_eps.htm

A microphone will make matters far worse, on far more frequencies.

Get a sound hole plug, reduce the bass & get a good parametric eq.

Best,
Howard Emerson

[leew3]

What Howard and L2O have said is sound advice-yes I said it!

[tbtxaz21]

I def have this issue at one of our venues. It super loud and so of course we have to be even louder. Gets frustrating at times.

I use a Larivee OM with an Anthem. Things I’ve tried - cut a rubber sound hole plug to fit around the anthem controller, roll off the Anthem mic, roll off the bass, roll off the sub level control on the EV 30M. All help but sometimes physics is just physics and it happens.

[JDFort]

Originally Posted by tbtxaz21

Things I’ve tried - cut a rubber sound hole plug to fit around the anthem controller, roll off the Anthem mic, roll off the bass, roll off the sub level control on the EV 30M. All help but sometimes physics is just physics and it happens.

I have already done all of the above as well as switching from a dreadnought to an OM body and enabling phase reversal on the anthem. We had a sound check yesterday on location and results were promising. We used a second smaller line array with sub to fill in the dead spots in the room and were able to lower the volume quite a bit on the EV. Tonight will tell the story with a noisy crowd.

[Bob Womack]

My personal approach was to use my stiffest-topped guitar with a piezo-only pickup. For instance, I have a Taylor K14c cedar over koa grand auditorium guitar that is extremely light, sensitive, and resonant. That guitar would go NUTS with even minimal amplification. I bought an all-solid 2000 Taylor 314kce sitka over koa grand auditorium guitar that is built quite a bit heavier, is far less resonant and quite a bit stiffer to play out in combo situations. The stiffer build makes it FAR less susceptible to high sound pressure feedback. It has a Fishman Prefix under-saddle transducer pickup with luscious barn door electronics. The acoustic mafia howl about USTs and barn doors but I find these to be idea for high sound pressure level situations. If the sound person is less-than-capable of handling things, I can quickly reverse phase, dial in the notch, and roll off the bass by my own little self.

Now, we aren't talking about optimum sound here, we are talking about survival and rapid adaptability in an environment that is just plain old hostile to an acoustic instrument. These days that same 314kce stage guitar, now over twenty years old, is doing yeoman's service in the studio as my "Swiss army acoustic." I used it on a session yesterday, in fact. I just don't leave a battery in the Fishman so it doesn't leak and corrode.

Bob

[tbtxaz21]

Bob - that sounds like a great approach.

I think next time we play our regular super loud club I’m going to bring my 04 Taylor 810ce with the expression 2. I know it’s not great plugged in but this place is so loud there’s zero nuance in the tone to be heard. But I bet I can plug it with a full rubber sound hole plug and cut out the feedback and resonance.

JD - let us know how it went.