triads..am my thinking too hard to understand this?

[Auralis]

I admit, I self taught at first, learned some bad fingerings, got some good advice and learned more every day. I am the first to admit though, I have a hard time with tabs, and pretty much have limited my learning of chords to the open chord position or the chord in a E frame, or Am frame..don't really care for A frame (hate B's)..but today I watched some videos of a folk guitarist who explained the dynamics of finding alternate fingerings anywhere on the fretboard if you used the 1-3-5 (root-third-fifth)..woot, I learned something new and understood it!...so I played around, using the A major chord...ok, I can find it in several places now...but then I looked at someone else's discussion/lesson regarding "Slash-chord triads"...ok, so I understand, same concept, except chord has a bass note that is not it's root. He played a nice little session, using the A major chord, bass note being A, and a I-IV-V-I progression. Ok, still not lost, understood that...correctly me if I am misunderstanding, but I understand it he plays these chords...A-E-D-A...I even get when I see he starts with an A chord in the standard 2nd fret position and I can see how he finds alternative A's, E' and D' up and down the fretboard, it doesn't matter where he plays it as long as he is maintaining the I-IV-V-I pattern...ok but then he goes into this (see below) and I am totally lost, I have looked at it, and tried to make it snap...but I just can't get it to click...what am I missing here?

" In bar 2 I'm using a (from bass up) 5-1-3 for the A chord, a 1-3-5 for the E and a 3-5-1 for the D.
Bar 4 I'm using a 5-1-3 for the A (again), a 3-5-1 for the E, a 5-1-3 for the D and I end on a 1-3-5 for the A chord in bar 5. Bar 6 is a 3-5-1 for the A chord, 5-1-3 for the E and a 5-1-3 for the D (again) ... they're all there and you should (eventually) be able to see them in all their forms everywhere on the fretboard.

Ok I understand the 1 is my root note..then my 3rd and 5th..but when he gets to the 3-5-1 for the A...I start to get headaches...so does it really matter if I know the 1-3-5 by number sequence as long as I can find the correct chord on the fretboard?

[travisd572]

If I am understanding you correctly, I think what you are experiencing are inversions. As long as you have a 1, 3 and a 5 to build a triad. If the 3 is a bass note and your 5 and 1 follow below its a first inversion. If the 5 is the bass note its a second inversion. I dont know if that makes sense I am sure someone may be able to explain it better than I. I would google a 1st inversion and a 2nd inversion to get a better understanding.

[Auralis]

http://www.guitarforbeginners.com/fo...-chord-triads/

This was the page I was looking at the triads-slash chords in A major with A bass note.

Of course, just learned today about root, third, fifths...so maybe I am just going to fast and need to slow down and get the concept down, but this isn't really much different, and gives me something to play around with using triads.

Thanks!

Auralis

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by travisd572

If I am understanding you correctly, I think what you are experiencing are inversions.

Sounds like it to me too.

Originally Posted by Auralis

Ok I understand the 1 is my root note..then my 3rd and 5th..but when he gets to the 3-5-1 for the A...I start to get headaches...so does it really matter if I know the 1-3-5 by number sequence as long as I can find the correct chord on the fretboard?

Inversions will give you different voicings of the chords. So it kind of does matter, but only in how the song sounds to you or how you want it to sound or play it. They can make things interesting.

Here are the inversions for A major:

R 3 5
A C# E

3 5 R
C# E A

5 R 3
E A C#

Inversions are playing "leap frog" with the notes of the chords.

http://musiced.about.com/od/lessonsa...inversions.htm

Any time you can play the three notes that make up a chord, you have the chord. For example, F major doesn't have to be the dreaded barre chord. It can be xx321x. There's your F A C triad for F major. It sounds fuller as a barre, however.

[walternewton]

I agree he's talking about inversions - in fact, he says it outright on the page you linked to:

"Each of the four kinds of triad has three 'inversions'. It doesn't matter what order the three notes (1-3-5) come in -- 1-3-5, or 3-5-1, or 5-1-3 -- they're all the same chord".

I think beginners tend to learn (for example) a first position A chord (x02220), and are led to believe it's "THE" A chord - but actually there are many "A chords" on the guitar. As an exercise try drawing a fretboard diagram and filling in all the A, C# and E notes - ANY voicing you can come up with and play containing any combination of the 3 notes is a valid A chord.

[shawlie]

Originally Posted by Auralis

Ok I understand the 1 is my root note..then my 3rd and 5th..but when he gets to the 3-5-1 for the A...I start to get headaches...so does it really matter if I know the 1-3-5 by number sequence as long as I can find the correct chord on the fretboard?

You got some good advice, and inversions are very much fun (and give things a lot of depth and variation).

I think learning the forms is a good place to start - after a while, you'll probably learn the notes as you go, without thinking a whole lot about it anyway (I started learning the shapes, but now mostly think in notes).

If you learn the shapes, then think about what notes you're playing once in a while, you'll know where the chords are and know most of the notes on the fretboard. You don't have to learn eveything at the same time if you don't want to. But once the triads are in your head, it'll be second nature to figure out inversions.

[Howard Klepper]

5-1-3 is the pattern of the fretted notes at the second fret when making the common open A chord.

You will use different inversions when you expand your playing from the basic open chords and find the same chord in different places of the neck. Whether you have to know what inversion you are playing depends a lot on how you learn and what kind of music you want to play. I can pretty much guarantee that it won't hurt you, and likely will help.

[RevGeo]

One of the problems with guitarists learning this stuff is that we tend to to think of chords as different 'shapes' or 'grips' that we play on the neck.
We need to think of chords for what they are - groups of notes that sound good when sounded together.
Major chords are made up of the 1st, 3rd and 5th note of the major scale. What order you place them in (inversions) really doesn't matter. They are still chords. The lowest note can be the 1, 3, or 5. As can the middle note or the highest note.
If you learn all your open position chords and learn what the notes are it starts to make more sense. An open E chord, from the 6th to 1st string is
1-5-1-3-5-1
An open C chord, from the 5th string is 1-3-5-1-3.
An open G chord, from the 6th string is 1-3-5-1-3-1.

You can find chords anywhere on the neck as long as you memorize what all the notes are on the neck. Nobody wants to do it, but that is what's necessary.
I make graphic charts for my students that show all the notes on the neck and I tell them to find all the chord tones for, say, a G chord on the neck. They find all the Gs, Bs and Ds and highlight them with a green highlighting pen. Then they get other charts and fill in the notes for the other chords. Then they try playing them. It really opens up the neck.
Stick with it. It's really worth knowing.

Rev George

[tbeltrans]

There are a number of ways to think about and approach this issue, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. Here is my take (which really agrees with what has been said)...

Learn the notes on the fretboard and then how chords are spelled, and then how to apply the chord spellings to the fretboard to create any chord anywhere on the fretboard.

Here is an exercise that is very simple and painless to learn the notes on the fretboard. I got this from Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" years ago. Every day, pick a note at random and find it all over the fretboard, starting with the lowest note on the 6th string and going up each string in turn finding that note. Then do the same with the same note in reverse, starting with the last position for that note on the first string and going back down each string it turn to the note you started with on the sixth string. Just pick one note at random every day. Over a period of a few weeks, you will begin to see the fretboard just as we already can see the keys laid out on the piano. I like this exercise much better than written materials such as charts because it is just you and the fretboard, and training your eyes and hands to see and go to each of the notes. David Sudnow, in his piano course, talked about knowing the "shape of the keyboard". This is one way to do that on the guitar - and it really does pay off in the long run. At the beginning, the exercise might take you 15 or 20 minutes, but in two or three weeks of picking ONE a day to do this with, you will be doing it in two or three minutes tops - and within seconds after a month or two or three. It really isn't difficult, and this is a painless way to get it into your hands and eyes where you need it.

Learn the chord spellings (i.e. major: 1,3,5 minor: 1,b3,5 dominant 7: 1,3,5,b7 - these are the three "basic chords", all others are extensions/permutations of those). You can find a chart on the internet or in many books on music. Learn these and the extensions such as 6ths (1,3,5,6), 9th (1,3,5,b7,9) etc.

Then, as you are learning these chord spellings and continuing to find the notes on the fretboard (I still do that every day and will for the rest of my life just to stay "tuned" to the fretboard), start finding these chords on the fretboard. For example, call out "C major - 1,3,5 C E G", and then start by finding a 'C' on the fretboard and then find an 'E' and a 'G' close by. You know where all the Cs, Es, and Gs, are, so you can find these all over the fretboard. Don't worry about having a particular note in a particular position (i.e. C as the lowest note or whatever), just find all these groupings. Do a different chord every day. If you do C major today, do Bb minor 7 tomorrow, etc, etc.

If you do this, you will REALLY know the fretboard and will have a command of it that will greatly aid both inventive ways to "comp" and to arrange fingerstyle solos or whatever else you choose to do with that knowledge.

So in this post, you have WHY and HOW - step by step, to get this stuff in your hands and eyes - where you need it to be able to play.

Regards,

Tony

[Auralis]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the words of wisdom. I read some more up and spent a little time fussing at myself because I have been playing for too long just messing around without learning any theory and it's aggravating to have to stop and count down each fret one by one reciting the notes to try and find one I am looking for, but you are right, the more I do it the less I will have to do it later. Besides now I "see" that knowing this actually gives me more variety in playing. I understood simple chord progressions, but this gives it some spice and that's what gives a player his unique playing qualities.

I have two acoustics (steel stringed) that I play 100% of the time, one electric that sits in the closet and I just placed an order with a local dealer to get my first nylon stringed acoustic. I figure if I am gonna keep buying guitars I'd better learn to play them in more ways than I have been!

Love this site, everybody ROCKS!

Auralis

[tbeltrans]

Remember one more thing as you go down this path - BALANCE! It is sometimes difficult to retain a balance and perspective on exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. One thing that people (including myself) who self-teach often have trouble with - the ability to step back and evaluate the situation as another person (teacher) could. We can tend to go off in tangents, such as neglecting to play music in favor of studying theory and learning to navigate the fretboard with scales, arpeggios, etc. Or, we can spend our time "messing around" and, after a few years, regret having "wasted" that time because we still can't really play something. I have dealt with this for years. Conversely, there are many players who develop into very good musicians without ever having given theory a thought. We are all different in this regard.

My conclusion for myself at this point is that I have narrowed my "theory" stuff down to a few simple things. the exercises I described in my previous post here pretty much cover what I want to keep fresh in my hands. The sum total of that only takes a few minutes a day once you are comfortable with the process, and doing it every day keeps it fresh at the "tips of your fingers".

The rest of my time is spent learning stuff off recordings and working out my own arrangements and compositions. I pick up tips here and there that seem to fit my way of doing things. With all this discussion in these forums, with other players directly, books, DVDs, etc - take what you need and leave the rest. Not everything works for everybody, and it is largely a matter of trial and error to sift through the wealth of information to find what is most effective for you. For each person, this will be at least a bit different, and will also change over time as your needs change. It is an ongoing process.

By the way, for me, learning stuff from recordings is paramount, not because I necessarily want to play somebody else's arrangement note for note all the time, but it is the best way I know of to REALLY get ideas and musical vocabulary into my hands. Learning arranging or even arrangements from books is fine, but for me - it is MUCH easier to memorize what I learn off recordings for some reason. Also, recordings seem to bring the music to life and make it three-dimensional so that, instead of dealing in concepts, I am always playing music that "works in real life" as evidenced by the fact that what I am learning is what I also love to listen to anyway. It is also GREAT ear training. The note finding and chord finding I described in my previous post supports this ear learning because I can easily "see" what the artist is doing as I learn by ear, and then move that around the fretboard and in different keys, and come up with my own uses for what I learned from the recording (i.e. build my own musical vocabulary because I have the ability to think and analyze in a practical sense what it is my fingers are doing). It all fits together so that I am not doing anything that has no practical value.

It took a lot of years to sift through all the information and learn enough about myself and how I work to come to this conclusion about how I want to approach the guitar, but it was worth it. Some people come to their equivalent of this point much faster than I did, while some never do and eventually give up altogether or just settle for staying where they are right now. Most seem to figure out stuff as they go, and over time (like me) find what they are looking for musically. The main thing is to stay with it and stay curious and willing to experiment and learn.

Tony