Portable PA Reshuffle (EV, QSC, Daedalus)

[radvra]

Reading all of the data shared in this post, and it is very helpful! Upgrading my FOH speakers from G1 JBL EON's (workhorses I have had for a number of years) to the QSC K10. I was fat dumb and happy with my basic Mackie 1402vlz, EONS on sticks, and a rack with outboard processor, EQ,Compressor, etc.
UNTIL i heard the EV ZXA1 on a cruise ship recently. From there researched my way into the QSC K series (and away from the EON's). This seems like just the right setup for my side project acoustic gig (duet). Good to get some different perspectives on setups, monitoring options, etc. - so thanks!

[ferg]

I figured I'd update this post with some information now that I've made some moves and used my gear a couple of times.

First off, I decided to sell my Zed 12 FX and get the smaller Zed 10 FX. I do miss the mutes a bit, but for something roughly 1/3 the size that does everything I need. Secondly, I ended up with 3 QSC K10s. For the PA itself, I now have the following to carry:

1 Gator Mixer Case - I bought some cheap pick n' pluck foam inserts on eBay and fitted them to the inside of the case that used to hold my Zed 12 FX. So, now it holds my Zed 10 FX and 4 microphones, securely encased in "custom" plucked foam. One of these mics is a backup. The pocket of the case holds the power cable for the mixer and 3 mic cables (basically the mixer and everthing that hooks into it).

3 QSC K10 Totes - each contains the speaker. In the pocket goes the power cable and the cable that connects it to the mixer.

2 Stand Bags - 1 with Mic/Guitar/Music stands, 1 with speaker stands.

I love this setup, because it's very easy to keep organized. Each bag contains the cables that go with the component(s) that it holds. I do carry backup cables in a small other bag, but that has yet (knock on wood) to be opened at a gig.

So far, I've played 2 gigs and have yet to use the 3rd QSC speaker. Both are coffee-house type places. At one, we use 2 speakers, off to the side and only slightly behind us. At the other (really small place), we use only 1 QSC, mounted high and angled down placed behind us and off to the side.

In both of these cases, I've been pretty happy using the speakers for dual FOH / monitor use. In fact, there will be very few times, I think, that we will need the monitor.

So, speaking of using the QSC K10s as monitor, I've made some interesting observations...

First off, my original notion that it would be good to have a monitor that matched the FOH so I could basically hear what the audience is hearing goes out the window when you put this thing on the floor. I found that, in a floor wedge position, in order to get a sound that I really found pleasing, I had really bring the bass WAY up. As you may recall, I had originally hoped to just use the FOH mix in the monitor, but that'd be out the window, were I to keep it on the floor.

In hopes of being able to use the FOH mix at some point (even if only during soundcheck), I tried putting the monitor up a bit, still in a horizontal position, on a low stand designed for guitar amps. That was better, but not much. I'm telling you that the difference was so dramatic that I was wondering if the speaker was faulty. I put the same speaker up on a pole, and it sounded wonderful.

So, what to do next? I STILL really liked the idea of having 3 of the same speaker for backup purposes, but really, as a monitor, I wasn't loving it. I want to be clear here - I could definitely get a good sound out of the floor with some EQ tweaking. Actually, I found the DEEP setting on the speaker helped a LOT (whereas, when pole-mounted, I felt it muddled things).

We have a gig coming up in a couple of weeks that pretty much require us to put the FOH speakers out in front of us. The place where we stand is fairly narrow, but widens a bit in front of that part. What I'm planning on doing (and I'll try this in rehearsal this week) is mounting the speaker I'm using as a monitor on a pole in front of us, off to one side, but pointing back toward us. On-Stage makes a relatively inexpensive device that allows you to mount 2 speakers on 1 pole. So, on whichever side I am, I'll put one speaker facing out, and one facing back.

All in all, I've been really happy with our sound. The 1 and 2 speaker gigs have been nice...we've been in and setup in just a few minutes, and have gotten things down to about 2 trips to the car (there are 2 of us).

[Rick Shepherd]

Hi Ferg,

I can understand how FOH speakers can serve you well as monitors by creatively positioning the speakers. It seems rare to get gigs that have plenty of space to position things just right. In cases where space is limited, I will walk out in front with my mic and guitar to a distance in front of the speakers where the audience sits, then tweak my sound. I figure at that point, it is as good as it is going to get, and just adjust myself to the situation as best I can. It is interesting how our ears can learn to adjust for different situations like this, by learning to hear ourselves bounced around in different venue setups. I guess that is part of the fun and challenge, each place being different.

I have two sets of Daedalus speakers, the 803's and the 823's, which I rarely get to use at one time while gigging. For the larger venues, I use the 823's, the 803's for the smaller ones. Sadly, I still don't get the full benefit of owning such a nice setup, mainly because these speakers really shine when the volume is turned up to a level that most indoor venues I do can't handle. Outdoor situations are where I get the opportunity to unleash their potential..

[DrDavid]

Interesting update, Ferg. Thanks for posting. I was wondering how things were going for you.

Originally Posted by ferg

What I'm planning on doing (and I'll try this in rehearsal this week) is mounting the speaker I'm using as a monitor on a pole in front of us, off to one side, but pointing back toward us.

I'll be particularly intrigued how that experiment turns out for you. My suspicion is, once you put the K10 monitor up on a pole and facing back toward you, your risk of waking up the feedback monster increases dramatically.

But maybe you can find a position that works for your specific configuration.

Please be sure to post how this goes.

..

[ferg]

Originally Posted by DrDavid

My suspicion is, once you put the K10 monitor up on a pole and facing back toward you, your risk of waking up the feedback monster increases dramatically

Honestly, I'd be surprised. We have practiced many times in the past with the speakers facing us (that used to be what was typical). Granted, the speakers were probably a little further away in those cases. We'll try positioning it in the gig position this week.

We've also played the last 2 gigs with the speakers, essentially, behind us. At the 1-speaker gig, the speaker was behind me pointed almost directly at my mic. If you think about it, putting the speaker on a pole pointed toward us really isn't that different than having it on the floor (also pointing toward us).

So, while having the speaker pole mounted pointing toward us may be somewhat more feedback prone than having it on the floor pointing toward us, I doubt it will be as bad as having the speaker behind us pointed toward us, and we haven't had any issues there.

The thing about it is - none of these places are "high volume" types of places. The truth is, even at the gig where the speakers must be out in front of us, we could probably survive without a monitor at all. However, after investing all the time and money into the PA system, I'd like to hear something decent on the stage as well.

I tell ya what - I remember back in my full-band days constantly wrestling with feedback and trying to get enough volume out of a monitor to be heard on stage without feedback. With an acoustic duo, the stage volume is low enough that we really don't need to get much output in order to hear ourselves.

[BoB/335]

Just don't do comparing any other speakers unless you are truly not happy or if you have the money to do whatever you want.

I found the same thing as you and noted that a while back. On their own, the ZxA1 is a very respectable speaker and especially at the price point. Very light and plenty powerful enough and very useable sound. When I compared it to a K8 I noticed right away how much smoother the K8 was and felt it was worth spending the extra money and bought the K8. (I would have bought the K10's but got a good deal on the K8)
Since then I got a super deal on a pair of EV SxA360's and did a side by side with the K8. (Big mistake) Night and day difference in overall sound, low end on my guitar, clarity on vocals, and penetration in distance. (Truly great for outdoor block parties) A 12" at 36 lbs was a far as I was willing to go. Would love to do a side by side with a K12 just to compare. These EV's have such a great sound.

To anyone: If you are happy with your sound / don't do any comparisons.

[DrDavid]

Hey there Bob,

I think I'm headed toward those EV SxA360s, too. It will be a while before I can justify the investment. But, from all reviews, they seem to have the overall combination of attributes that would best suit our little band.

Ferg,

On the feedback issue, it's definitely a matter of what will work best for your specific duo and sound, obviously.

I've just found that placing monitors closer (and lower) makes it easier to find the null zone with the vocal mics (we have three vocalists, so that greatly complicates the whole procedure, compared to your set up).
..

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by DrDavid

Hey there Bob,

I think I'm headed toward those EV SxA360s, too. It will be a while before I can justify the investment. But, from all reviews, they seem to have the overall combination of attributes that would best suit our little band.

Ferg,

On the feedback issue, it's definitely a matter of what will work best for your specific duo and sound, obviously.

I've just found that placing monitors closer (and lower) makes it easier to find the null zone with the vocal mics (we have three vocalists, so that greatly complicates the whole procedure, compared to your set up).
..

FYI I got them from MF when they had a 15% off sale (of the everywhere price of $799) (which was just a little cheaper than another site I found online) and 6 Months NO INTEREST.. Much easier to justify!

Make sure their inputs are good for you. Check the back panel.

[ferg]

Originally Posted by DrDavid

Ferg,

On the feedback issue, it's definitely a matter of what will work best for your specific duo and sound, obviously.

I've just found that placing monitors closer (and lower) makes it easier to find the null zone with the vocal mics (we have three vocalists, so that greatly complicates the whole procedure, compared to your set up).
..

David,

It wouldn't surprise me if a raised speaker was more of a feedback issue than a floor wedge (both facing you). That makes sense. However, compared to a raised speaker behind us, I expect it to actually be an improvement in that area - and should have the benefit of more closely mirroring what the audience is hearing.

Bob - your point is a very good one - if you're satisfied, don't do comparisons, because you will almost certainly find something out there that sounds better.

My search started as I realized that the Bose L1 compact I had wasn't really working as a monitor, so I started exploring the possibility of using 3 matched speakers. Now, I've gone down this road, and I'm quite happy, and I'm done looking for the medium-term. I will likely revisit this issue in about a year, and only then if the quality (read: $) of our gigs has improved, and maybe not even then.