Recording / mixing advice

[Wrighty]

Hi all

I have been doing a fair amount of recording lately and feel I am getting better at it in terms of playing / mic placement / mixing / output - but I am a little frustrated at not being able to get closer to the reference sounds for each track that I am targeting.

In this case, the reference track is below. I am well aware that a) This is Tony McManus playing, and b) He's playing a Greenfield guitar ;-) So I am not expecting miracles. He is, however playing in a less than friendly acoustic environment but still the sound is great to my ears.



My recording is below - and uses my regular equipment of 2 x AT2020 in a spaced pair (17" apart and about 12" from the guitar) and into an Audient ID14 into Auria IOS. I have added some basic EQ, some reverb and a dash of compression and then lifted the levels to around -14db.

My observation is that my high ends and low ends lack the clarity of the reference recording and sound a little too muted for my tastes. My Avalon is not a dull sounding guitar and has a great low and high end but these are not coming through here for me at least.

I am looking for any observations on what you hear, as well as any suggestions as to what I might alter in terms of mic positioning, mixing etc. to get more clarity and brightness to the sound.



Many thanks in advance..

Peter

[Doug Young]

Peter, did you pan your tracks inward? It kind of sounds like that to me, possibly because you're trying to match your reference track, which is mono, with a bit of stereo reverb creating what stereo there is. You may be losing the highs and space doing to panning. Could also be the mic, can't tell what Michael was using here.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Peter, did you pan your tracks inward? It kind of sounds like that to me, possibly because you're trying to match your reference track, which is mono, with a bit of stereo reverb creating what stereo there is. You may be losing the highs and space doing to panning. Could also be the mic, can't tell what Michael was using here.

Hi Doug - tracks panned hard left and right so not sure what might cause that. Does it sound lacking in clarity to you?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Hi Doug - tracks panned hard left and right so not sure what might cause that. Does it sound lacking in clarity to you?

OK, that was a wild (and wrong) guess :-) Yes, you don't have the same presence as Tony's track. I think yours sounds fine, tho, and in some ways sound better to me, being real stereo and so on. But if you're shooting for Tony's sound, maybe a brighter reverb, and some EQ to boost the highs?

[rick-slo]

Tony's recording is mono with mono reverb added. One of the best mono guitar sounding recordings I have heard. Most details as to why later. Going out right now.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OK, that was a wild (and wrong) guess :-) Yes, you don't have the same presence as Tony's track. I think yours sounds fine, tho, and in some ways sound better to me, being real stereo and so on. But if you're shooting for Tony's sound, maybe a brighter reverb, and some EQ to boost the highs?

Well thank you for the kind words..;-)

I did add some add some high shelf, but need to explore the Reverb options.

What would produce a brighter Reverb - would it be the eq settings in the Reverb plug in or some other settings?

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Tony's recording is mono with mono reverb added. One of the best mono guitar sounding recordings I have heard. Most details as to why later. Going out right now.

I agree - looking forward to hearing more..

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OK, that was a wild (and wrong) guess :-) Yes, you don't have the same presence as Tony's track. I think yours sounds fine, tho, and in some ways sound better to me, being real stereo and so on. But if you're shooting for Tony's sound, maybe a brighter reverb, and some EQ to boost the highs?

Doug - can I increase the gain on the treble side mic in relation to the bass side to increase the highs when recording?

[Trevor B.]

The following extracted quote is from Michael Greenfield himself about videos made in his shop.
"The Bench Room Series of videos are recorded by Tom MacDonald of Flicomedia. The guitar was recorded mono by a single 184."
I assume (I know the old saying about assume making an *** of u and me) he means a Neumann KM 184. It looks like the same mic from the source of this quote as the one in the Tony McManus Sleeping Tune video. Here's a link to the quote.
https://cs-tv.org/tv/poetic-justice-naO2u3ZSJ5U.html
Hope this info adds to the conversation.

[rick-slo]

I think your recording sounds good. Versus Tony's recording don't underestimate the importance of the exact guitar being recorded. Tony's is a large guitar with a solid bass sound and perhaps has a little overall warmer tone. Also which exact post recording reverb used (if any) makes a big difference. And as Doug pointed out you are comparing a stereo versus mono recording. You can expect the mono to more spatially focused though most mono recordings sound fairly thin to my ears - not in this particular case.

[Doug Young]

Yeah, a KM184 has a presence peak, which may be part of the equation. This is a rather challenging reference to pick. It does sound good, but it strikes me as a triumph of Tony and the guitar over everything else. Mono usually doesn't work well for guitar (to my ears), he's in a probably lively, not acoustically good room, and so on. The guitar itself may be a bit bright (right off the bench?) If you want to sound as close to it as you can, I'd start with a single mic, placed where you see Tony's mic. Make sure you have new strings. Experiment with different reverbs and EQ settings (there is software that will allow you to match the EQ curve of one recording to another - iZotope has this, I'm sure there are many others).

I wouldn't suggest trying to EQ just one side of your recording - that might make a nice sounding recording, but it will take you further away from what was done on Tony's recording. if you want to match Tony, I'd start with doing everything as close to what you can see/hear that he did as possible.

I'd offer to play with the track, but I'm about to head out of town. Sounds like Rick's interested, I'm sure he'll be able to help.

Oh, yes, you can EQ reverb, depending on your signal path, but I'd just play with different reverb settings on whatever you have. I'm not so sure that it's really a mono-reverb, I hear some space - I think it's a mono guitar into a stereo reverb just based on a quick listen, but if Rick's right about that, it adds another wrinkle to match.

BTW, I'm talking about the guitar being "bright", but it's really the overtones and ambience, I'm hearing, I guess - lots of ringing. The guitar also has a big low end. Greenfields are unique instruments, so as Rick's pointing out, the guitar may be an element that's difficult to match.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I think your recording sounds good. Versus Tony's recording don't underestimate the importance of the exact guitar being recorded. Tony's is a large guitar with a solid bass sound and perhaps has a little overall warmer tone. Also which exact post recording reverb used (if any) makes a big difference. And as Doug pointed out you are comparing a stereo versus mono recording. You can expect the mono to more spatially focused though most mono recordings sound fairly thin to my ears - not in this particular case.

Thanks Derek - all points very valid.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yeah, a KM184 has a presence peak, which may be part of the equation. This is a rather challenging reference to pick. It does sound good, but it strikes me as a triumph of Tony and the guitar over everything else. Mono usually doesn't work well for guitar (to my ears), he's in a probably lively, not acoustically good room, and so on. The guitar itself may be a bit bright (right off the bench?) If you want to sound as close to it as you can, I'd start with a single mic, placed where you see Tony's mic. Make sure you have new strings. Experiment with different reverbs and EQ settings (there is software that will allow you to match the EQ curve of one recording to another - iZotope has this, I'm sure there are many others).

I wouldn't suggest trying to EQ just one side of your recording - that might make a nice sounding recording, but it will take you further away from what was done on Tony's recording. if you want to match Tony, I'd start with doing everything as close to what you can see/hear that he did as possible.

I'd offer to play with the track, but I'm about to head out of town. Sounds like Rick's interested, I'm sure he'll be able to help.

Oh, yes, you can EQ reverb, depending on your signal path, but I'd just play with different reverb settings on whatever you have. I'm not so sure that it's really a mono-reverb, I hear some space - I think it's a mono guitar into a stereo reverb just based on a quick listen, but if Rick's right about that, it adds another wrinkle to match.

BTW, I'm talking about the guitar being "bright", but it's really the overtones and ambience, I'm hearing, I guess - lots of ringing. The guitar also has a big low end. Greenfields are unique instruments, so as Rick's pointing out, the guitar may be an element that's difficult to match.

Thanks very much for the comprehensive thoughts - very helpful.

I guess I am less after that exact sound than the elements of it that appeal to me - the clarity and the way the overtones ring out. Whilst my Avalon is no Greenfield, it does have a lot of overtones and a lovely ringing sustain so I figured I might get some of his elements in mine.

I wasn’t aware one could match EQ from recording to recording - I will have to look into that.

I am planing to;

A - practice the piece more and improve the flow
B - Play with mic placement and maybe get more of the treble bout into the signal chain
C - Put some new strings on for the next real take
D - Play with some different reverbs

Cheers

Peter

[RRuskin]

The biggest difference is that your recording is dry and Tony's is dripping with reverb.

[rick-slo]

Peter, you might post the raw recording. Could be fun for me to play around with that. Wav file preferred. Email attachment if no other way. My ISP email size limit is 25mb.