Played first solo gig last night - Preamp Questions

[Creekside Guitar]

I played my first solo Acoustic gig last night and it went much better than expected. It's definitely a different thing than playing in a full live band! I was pretty nervous before the show but once I started playing I was fine.

Leading up to the gig I was having a hard time with my Acoustic guitar sound. This led to some of the nervousness about how I would sound. I have a D-18GE with a K&K Pure and bought a Red-Eye preamp as a backup to my Roland AC90. When I plugged straight into my AC90, it sounded awful! I ended up rolling back all the EQ settings to flat and using the Shape button as I was mostly strumming chords. No chorus, No anti-feedback and just a little Reverb. It was a manageable sound but honestly not very good. I also tried running the Red-Eye into a little PA I have. This sounded better than the Roland but was still very average sounding.

I ended up packing everything up and going to the gig. When I got there, one of the other musicians had a EDB-1 preamp hooked up to the house PA. I plugged into that without even adjusting the settings and it sounded great! I used that for the night and the gig went very well. This now leads me to a quest for a good preamp for my situation. Obviously the EDB-1 worked well but I'm looking for opinions on the EDB-2, AER Colurizer or even the K&K XLR Mach 2. I'd love to hear what others have had success with using the K&K mini in a solo Acoustic setting.

[DHillshafer]

I gig plugging straight into the PA system. Add a little reverb - done. Just play and have fun.

[Nemoman]

I've had good luck using my Baggs Para Acoustic DI with my K and K mini.

[Irish Pennant]

You said you used another musicians preamp/DI that was already plugged into the house PA. Did you try to use your preamp/DI into the house PA? Did you try to use his preamp/DI into your amp? The problem may be your amp and by chasing preamps you may not be addressing the correct issue. I would do a little more testing before looking at different preamps.

[Creekside Guitar]

Didn't even use the amp at all. I'm thinking it is the amp that is giving me problems based on all the great reviews about the Red-Eye. But as I mentioned, plugging the Red-Eye straight into my PA didn't give spectacular results. I think the key is the availability of an EQ in the preamp. The K&K's seem to vary widely based on installation and guitar type/body size.

[DesertTwang]

Hi Creekside, Congrats on your solo gig! That's awesome!

Your results in terms of sound left me puzzled, because I use almost the same setup and it sounds terrific! K&K Pure Mini in a Martin SWDGT dreadnaught; plugged straight into my Fender Acoustasonic amp, the sound is super awesome (to my ears). Directly plugged into a PA, it's pretty bad. That's why I use the Redeye preamp, just like you. With that, the sound is terrific. I've used that arrangement with several different PA systems, including pretty shoddy ones, but thanks to the Redeye, I always achieved a sound that is pretty darn close to direct mic-ing the guitar.

I wonder if it might be your PA...?

[Villamarzia]

Another variable is the room. You liked the Headway but in a totally different environment, correct? Try to compare gear by minimizing the number of variables, otherwise it might lead anywhere.

[sublro]

Hey there. I'm a longtime user of k&k into PA and Fishman Loudbox or ultrasound amps. My experience is that a good preamp is always an improvement, both in immediate tone and eq options.

I've used most of the preamp you'll hear mentioned

Red-eye, k&k, Baggs, Fishman, and now, the best and the one I'll stick with, yes, the edb-1.

Why? What sets it apart? My experience is that most of the problems I've had with the k&k PWM (a completely KILLER pickup) are caused by too much bass (and the definition of too much really includes any more than is really needed - read on). Bass is where a lot of the unruly parts of amplified sound begin (including an acoustic guitar's amped sound). With the k&k, the worst manifestation is feedback, but before feedback comes the hollow sound, tubby sound, etc that people sometimes complain about.

Here's the magic I've found. In addition to 3 bands of eq at set frequencies, the edb1 has a sweep able bass rolloff control called anti-feedback, that's also known as a high pass filter (let's the high frequencies pass) that kills ALL bass below the frequency you choose. Dialed to the acoustic guitar zone, it kills everything below about 80 hz. And the thing is, you don't really miss that low bass in a great natural acoustic tone. In fact, I've realized I was generally using and trying for a tone that was too bass heavy anyway, especially if I'm playing in any mix of multiple instruments.

To be sure this is not a new discovery. You will see push button controls on sound boards that allow you to selectively do this on individual channels. As a sound man for plays and musicals, I've really come to appreciate how many problems can be avoided by cleaning up as much un-needed bass as possible.

So as to k&k, my biggest recommendation is beware the bass, and the headway makes that easy in addition to a bunch of other good features.

Last thing to clarify. I'm not talking here about the "notch" filter available in many places. That's a panic button that finds and reduces a specific mis behaving frequency. Different use.

I'm talking about removing all bass below a certain frequency, much if not all of which is not really audible or needed, and all of which has the potential to cause much of the mischief that ruins this otherwise stellar pickup's acoustic tone.

[sublro]

Hey there. I'm a longtime user of k&k into PA and Fishman Loudbox or ultrasound amps. My experience is that a good preamp is always an improvement, both in immediate tone and eq options.

I've used most of the preamp you'll hear mentioned

Red-eye, k&k, Baggs, Fishman, and now, the best and the one I'll stick with, yes, the edb-1.

Why? What sets it apart? My experience is that most of the problems I've had with the k&k PWM (a completely KILLER pickup) are caused by too much bass. Bass is where a lot of the unruly parts of an acoustic amped sound begins, with the worst manifestation being feedback, but before feedback comes hollow sound, tubby sound and many other objectionable and hard to manage sounds.

Here's the magic. The edb1 has a sweep able control called anti-feedback, that's also known as a high pass filter (let's the high frequencies pass) that kills ALL bass below the set frequency. Set to the acoustic guitar zone on the dial, it kills everything below about 80 hz. And the thing is, you don't really miss that low bass in a great natural acoustic tone. In fact, I've realized I was generally using and trying for a tone that was too bass heavy anyway

To be sure this is not a new discovery. You will see push button controls on sound boards that allow you to selectively do this on individual channels. As a sound man for shows, I've really come to appreciate how many problems can be avoided by cleaning up as much un-needed bass as possible.

So as to k&k, my biggest recommendation is beware the bass, and the headway makes that easy in addition to a bunch of other good features.

Last thing to clarify. I'm not talking here about the "notch" filter available in many places. That's a panic button that finds and reduces a specific mis behaving frequency. Different use.

I'm talking about removing all bass below a certain frequency, much if not all of which is either not really audible, none of which is really needed, and all of which can cause much of the mischief that ruins this otherwise stellar pickups acoustic tone.

[sublro]

Duplicate post. Can someone remove?

[Mr. Jelly]

I used a Fishman Spectrum Aura with my mini. No brainer easy and good modeled sound. Plug in and play.

[akafloyd]

I think the Red-Eye is great for the K&K if you have some eq somewhere down the line and you may be relying on someone at the mixer who doesn't know what a guitar should sound like. My favorite preamp with the K&K is the Radial Tonebone PZ-Deluxe, it has very effective eq.

[Creekside Guitar]

Thanks Sublro, you seem to be talking about exactly what I experienced. It's really challenging to get specific answers as everyone seems to have their own personal preferences.

I was wondering if you've tried the edb-2 compared to the edb-1?

I'm heading to NAMM next week so I'm preparing as much information as possible. I plan on talking to most of the manufactures I've listed about their opinions and specifics. I also appreciate the other information in this thread. Knowledge helps to make these personal sound decisions!

[Cuki79]

I do not own the EDB-2 but have owned the EDB-1.

The only drawback of the EDB-1 is noise. It's based on TL062 op-amp that are low power consumption version of TL072 (which is very common op-amp in audio)... As a result it works with batteries but is very-very noisy as the mic input is concerned (especially with phantom power on). For normal use with piezo pickup the noise floor is "Ok" but you have to play with gain and volume to get the optimum signal to noise ratio. This is something I've not been doing since may old 4 tracks K7 Tascam recorder preamps... (Note that using batteries instead of the wall wart improves a bit the problem but does not solve it).

Headway did not provide any noise spec for EDB-1 and was very conscious about the problem.

In the manual of the EDB-1 it is written

Method A:
After plugging in with both Gain & Master at ‘0’, Turn Master up to around 70-
80%, then very
gently turn CH Gain control up until you have reached the desired level for your instrument. This
method minimises background noise.

You don't see that in any preamp manual those days...

The EDB-2 was improved with respect to noise (though many customer complain about that on Thomann French website)

The EDB-2 manual says
On the pickup channel for 20dB gain you get -90dBu noise floor
On the mic channel for 30dB gain you get -84dB noise floor. (same spec as my old Tacam K7 4-tracks)

A low-cost Berhinger Xenyx is specified for 22dB gain at 112dB A-weighted SNR so a noise floor of -90dB.

Between the two, I would take EDB-2 no doubt.
Now you have to know that this preamp is a bit noisy... and works on battery (that's the price to pay)

[sublro]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I do not own the EDB-2 but have owned the EDB-1.

The only drawback of the EDB-1 is noise. It's based on TL062 op-amp that are low power consumption version of TL072 (which is very common op-amp in audio)... As a result it works with batteries but is very-very noisy as the mic input is concerned (especially with phantom power on). For normal use with piezo pickup the noise floor is "Ok" but you have to play with gain and volume to get the optimum signal to noise ratio. This is something I've not been doing since may old 4 tracks K7 Tascam recorder preamps... (Note that using batteries instead of the wall wart improves a bit the problem but does not solve it).

Headway did not provide any noise spec for EDB-1 and was very conscious about the problem.

In the manual of the EDB-1 it is written


You don't see that in any preamp manual those days...

The EDB-2 was improved with respect to noise (though many customer complain about that on Thomann French website)

The EDB-2 manual says
On the pickup channel for 20dB gain you get -90dBu noise floor
On the mic channel for 30dB gain you get -84dB noise floor. (same spec as my old Tacam K7 4-tracks)

A low-cost Berhinger Xenyx is specified for 22dB gain at 112dB A-weighted SNR so a noise floor of -90dB.

Between the two, I would take EDB-2 no doubt.
Now you have to know that this preamp is a bit noisy... and works on battery (that's the price to pay)

haven't experienced any of these issues, but am reminded of one thing I did experience. I am sometimes a percussive player, and will "thump" the top a bit sometimes during rowdier passages. this would cause a very pronouced static burst that was very disruptive. the cure is to get the 18v adaptor that headway makes for this unit. It can be run on a 9v battery, but that leaves it unable to handle the occasional signal "spikes" that heavier playing could throw at it. with the full 18 volts, the problem disappears as the unit then has plenty of "headroom" to draw on to handle the signal spikes. I wonder whether the misbehavior that cuki79 reports might have anything to do with this, and be fixed by using the 18v adaptor. for what it's worth....