Scale, frets and tension

[Jamolay]

I have a lovely Larrivee OM-2 with 14 fret neck join and 25.4 inch scale that I like a lot.

However, for some reason, never having played one, I have a thing (in my mind) for a 12 fret guitar.

But, I think what I am really looking for is lower tension. I am playing mostly classical guitar, so am getting more used to those lower tensions, but, they are also 12 frets guitars as most classicals seem to be.

I am already using low tension 12s from Straight Up Stings, and don’t like 11s.

My understanding is that 12 and 14 fret guitars (steel) with the same scale length will still have the same string tension. So what I want is a shorter scale regardless of fret join.

So, I guess I will tune my Larrivee down 1/2 or 1 full step and slap a capo at fret 1 or 2 and see what I think.

But what I was wondering was if the scale length of 25.5 vs 24.75 really makes that much tension difference. I will go out and try some at the local GC I suppose, but wonder what experienced players think. Am I just looking for something that isn’t really that meaningful or obtainable?

I don’t want to stop playing the steel string, I want to mostly play finger style, but sometimes a good strum is in order. I don’t play much with others, so I also suppose down tuning isn’t a bad option and I can put a capo on if I do, or if I want to play to a backing track.

I was also wondering about the John Pearce Folk fingerstyle strings. That seems a stretch on a steel string guitar. Quite the drop in tension (140s to 85), would require a new nut and probably a saddle as I would need higher action. Then I wouldn’t drive the soundboard as well. But it is a cheaper experiment than a new guitar.

If anyone has read this far, thanks for looking at my newby ramblings and thanks for any thoughts!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Jamolay

But what I was wondering was if the scale length of 25.5 vs 24.75 really makes that much tension difference.

I was also wondering about the John Pearce Folk fingerstyle strings. That seems a stretch on a steel string guitar. Quite the drop in tension (140s to 85)...

Yes, the change in scale length can make a discernible difference in tension, but it can vary with individual guitars as to how much easier one is to play. Not sure why that is -- perhaps setup, neck profile, etc. That said, my go-to is a short-scale, 14 fret because it's easier to play.

I wouldn't recommend the Pearse Folk on a steel-string, but I have them on a classical nylon-string and I think they sound great -- makes it more like a steel string. But if you play mostly classical, this may not be what you're after. But the Pearse Folk on a nylon string is the biggest change in guitar tone due to strings that I've heard.

[Guitars44me]

Short scale will drop the tension a noticeable amount for me at least.

More importantly for me it also makes the yoga chords a lot easier. Those long stretches get longer every year, especially at 71!

The 12 fret configuration will also bring your fretting hand a bit closer to your body and makes long sessions or gigs easier on your bod.

I keep everything tuned down to D, even with SS. That is the vocal sweet spot for me, and eases a lot of aches and pains, too.

Your idea of tuning down to D and capo II will certainly give you a good idea of what to expect from a good 12 fret.

Grab or cut yourself a five string capo and have some fun in drop D tuning. Works great in the key of G as well.

Good luck finding what works for YOU

Paul

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Jamolay

...So, I guess I will tune my Larrivee down 1/2 or 1 full step and slap a capo at fret 1 or 2 and see what I think.

But what I was wondering was if the scale length of 25.5 vs 24.75 really makes that much tension difference. I will go out and try some at the local GC I suppose, but wonder what experienced players think. Am I just looking for something that isn’t really that meaningful or obtainable?...

Everything else (pitch, string material, gauge, ...) being equal the tension is proportional to the square of the string length. So a 25.5" scale would have (25.5/24.75)^2, or 1.06 times the tension of the 24.75" scale. Personally, I can't feel a 6% difference in tension. I can start to feel it at around 24" scale, where there would be a 13% difference.

I find that nut slot height makes a much bigger difference. You might check your guitar to see if the nuts slots are about right. An easy way is to fret the string between frets 2 and 3. There should be a tiny gap between the string and the first fret, just enough to slip a piece of paper in. Larger gaps make it harder to fret.

Using a capo and retuning can be a nice way to see how a different scale length will feel. But keep in mind that using a capo may give you a much better equivalent nut slot height. That is, when you capo you're essentially setting the nut slots to near fret height. If you find it easier to fret with the capo it could either be because of reduced tension, or the fact that you're simulating properly set nut slots.

And +1 to what Guitars44me said about 12-frets. I like them for the same reason.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

That drop in scale length does make a little difference to playability but for me, not enough to compensate for the loss in tone. I like a long scale and if the guitar is set up properly there should be no difficulty with tension, you could try round core strings, which generally have a lower tension.

I have one 12 fret steel strung guitar with a 26 1/2" scale and it is a joy to play. On the other hand any Larrivee guitars that I have played have seemed very stiff and unrelenting to me, maybe that's just the way they are built.

[jaymarsch]

Like Malcolm suggested, I think that trying some round core strings would be an informative experiment. You could also try some GHS strings as they have a different wrap to core ratio that gives them a softer, more pliable feel without loss of tone.
Best,
Jayne

[Jamolay]

Thanks for the thoughts!

Interesting about the Larrivee being stiff. Maybe that is it. One thing as a beginner is I haven’t compared too many guitars. I love the Larrivee, but, could I need something else?

I did tune down this morning. Only tried a small play, but the full tone down, DGCFAD, feels and sounds about right for me.

I doubt even a short scale would drop the tension as much as that. Although if I do end up getting a different guitar, I will make it a short scale 12 fret, I think.

But I am just a play at home learner, so probably not much wrong with the down tuning, except I will train my ears to it.

I guess the other option would be to string my spare classical with the John Pearse strings. But I am not sure that is the direction to go and I do like the flexibility of a 1 3/4 nut sometimes, compared to 2” plus…

I have tried several round core and other low tension options (including GHS) and didn’t get what I was looking for. Of course, that means I am the problem, not the guitar[emoji849].

[rollypolly]

I think trying some sort of silk and steel strings will be a good first step. Try lights. I have used them on both short and long scale guitars and they are really good for comfy low tension playing. However, I found myself getting bored with the warm simple tone from those strings so I’ve moved on to retros or regular PB strings.

[Jamolay]

Thanks, I tried silk, tried retros, GHS, lots of strings. Strings are cheap, so I threw money that way. I still have a set of Newtone Heritage rounds to try. But I just can’t like 11s, so 12s go as low as 131 lbs for the Newtones, 138 lbs for ghs and 146 for the SUS I currently like. So maybe that will do it. Who knows.

I wish I liked 11s, but the feel and tone just don’t work for me, or maybe me and my current guitar..[emoji848]

[Malcolm Kindnes]

I think you should tune down a full tone and capo at the second fret, see how that feels. It should give you the idea of a short scale 12 fret guitar, however, I still think your set up might be the problem.

[joejessal]

Get Jamoly.
I have two 12 fret short scale guitars and to me, they are my easiest to play. Definitely notice the ease of tension. I’ve tried many strings and you’re on the right track. Straight up Strings are my favorites. Very even tensioned strings. Roger Siminoff has worked for many different string companies helping develop their products. He owns many patents for guitar building and other things. I buy his in 6 pacs and store them. He’s runs his own company and is an amazing source of information. He puts out a newsletter every so often with some valuable info. You can sign up on his website for it. That being said, I also have 14 fret 0 size Collings with a short scale that’s very comfortable to play. So, I think you just try some different guitars and see what ya think. Cheers 😄

[birdsong]

I read that you've tried a lot of strings but I'll toss this one out anyway b/c I'm using a set now and really like them on an OM I have.

They are definitely low tension and so I will say you may or may not like the way they play. But I have moderate neuropathy (post-chemo) and now some arthritis and these strings are nice addition to the mix.

https://www.stringsbymail.com/john-p...2-53-6261.html

[musicman1951]

Yes, short scale will feel better to anyone seeking a little less tension. The tone will be slightly warmer as well, which is either a plus or a minus depending on your proclivities.

If you play with fingers, especially with a variety of volumes, you will prefer short scale as they are generally quicker to speak a lower dynamic levels. If you like to play "energetically" with a stiff pick you might prefer long scale.

[Jamolay]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

Yes, short scale will feel better to anyone seeking a little less tension. The tone will be slightly warmer as well, which is either a plus or a minus depending on your proclivities.

If you play with fingers, especially with a variety of volumes, you will prefer short scale as they are generally quicker to speak a lower dynamic levels. If you like to play "energetically" with a stiff pick you might prefer long scale.

Thanks! I am mostly playing with fingers, so that is good to know. I am trying to decide if I understand the difference between “warmer” and “deeper”. I am actually thinking I like the deeper tone. Warmer too, but I think deeper is what I like. Maybe I need a 12 fret baritone[emoji848][emoji2361]

Originally Posted by birdsong

I read that you've tried a lot of strings but I'll toss this one out anyway b/c I'm using a set now and really like them on an OM I have.



They are definitely low tension and so I will say you may or may not like the way they play. But I have moderate neuropathy (post-chemo) and now some arthritis and these strings are nice addition to the mix.



https://www.stringsbymail.com/john-p...2-53-6261.html

I wish I could find the tension of these strings. I am a numbers guy. I can’t seem to locate it anywhere. Maybe I will email the company.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kindnes

I think you should tune down a full tone and capo at the second fret, see how that feels. It should give you the idea of a short scale 12 fret guitar, however, I still think your set up might be the problem.

My guitar is pretty well set up. I am pretty good with it and have had the nut professionally done as well. However, I did notice that AFTER I tuned down a whole step the relief was pretty good, arguing it may have been too high in the first place.

But, honestly, my problem with tension is my right hand, not my fretting hand (I have other problems there, but not tension). So I don’t think the setup is the issue, it is me and what I think I need. Potentially misguided, but clearly operator error, regardless.

Originally Posted by joejessal

Get Jamoly.

I have two 12 fret short scale guitars and to me, they are my easiest to play. Definitely notice the ease of tension. I’ve tried many strings and you’re on the right track. Straight up Strings are my favorites. Very even tensioned strings. Roger Siminoff has worked for many different string companies helping develop their products. He owns many patents for guitar building and other things. I buy his in 6 pacs and store them. He’s runs his own company and is an amazing source of information. He puts out a newsletter every so often with some valuable info. You can sign up on his website for it. That being said, I also have 14 fret 0 size Collings with a short scale that’s very comfortable to play. So, I think you just try some different guitars and see what ya think. Cheers [emoji1]

Agreed. I like the SUSs a lot and that is what I play now. Roger is an excellent resource and the company is spot on. I even had trouble with a single string and emailed asking if they would sell a single string replacement. Roger and I directly exchanged several direct emails after that discussing and trying things. Eventually, without my requesting, he sent a replacement string and a full set free of charge to make it right, even though we both agreed it may not have been the string. I sent him back the string in question and, naturally, nothing was wrong with it. I am not sure what it did wrong, but it must have been something about how I strung it.
Anyway, superior service and well beyond expectations for a single problem.

I think I will play tuned down with and without a capo for a while. Maybe a new guitar when the right one comes along. In my searching 12 fret short scales are in the pricey side.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Hello again, well if you are feeling the tension with your right hand then it is not the set up it is just the guitar. There are an awful lot of factors that contribute to a guitar being stiff to play and I think lighter strings or a different guitar are your only options, 12 fret or 14 fret shouldn't make any difference.