Tone Master Princeton Reverb?

[BoneDigger]

https://youtu.be/wBrBZWZ2BCU

Any thoughts on the new Tone Master Princeton Reverbs? How do you think it would stack up against a Quilter Aviator Cub?

[Steve DeRosa]

I think you're dealing with a different target demographic - the Quilter is a 50-watter designed for big on-stage headroom and a variety of sonic textures (in case you're unaware they produce both a US and UK-voiced version), the TM Princeton is pitched at players who want/need "that" sound but prefer a lighter-weight, near-zero-maintenance package...

That said, in spite of the expressed demand - and unless global conditions force the suspension/termination of Fender's tube-amp manufacture - I think it's unfortunately going to be a short-lived item: the TM Deluxe Reverb overlaps the same power range while providing more dynamic headroom and on-stage volume (heck, even the TM Twin gets down to 1W), there's relatively little weight savings over the TMDR, the DR offers two distinctively-voiced channels (selectable with an A/B box), and while the Jensen C10R is a major contributor to the classic Princeton tone many players (and even Fender in some cases) mod their cabinet to accept a 12" speaker; in addition, at only $50 less than the TMDR there's not enough going on to warrant opting for the smaller amp - at $799 I think they'd be selling faster than Fender could make them - and for the same $899 the all-tube silverface Vibro Champ Reverb will be the option of choice for many players seeking an exclusively studio/home-recording combo, or old guitar-cable-amp guys like me looking for an old-school rehearsal/small-gig box...

[raysachs]

I’ll most likely give one a try. I’m a home player, space is a major limitation (I have a Blues Cube Hot - a TMDR would overwhelm the space I have for an amp), don’t need gigging volume, and prefer the Princeton sound to the Deluxe. Not until next Spring - they won’t start shipping until November or December and we’re gone all winter), though, when they might be slightly discounted, and I’ll buy from someplace with a return policy, so if it doesn’t float my boat, back it goes. It’s been a long time since I owned a Fender voiced amp and I’ve lately gravitated toward the fuller Marshall sound, but this one will get me to go back for at least a trial run… I love the power attenuator and direct out the Tonemasters (and Blues Cubes) have.

-Ray

[rmp]

I really love the Tone Master DR I have, that Fender has now the Princeton in this line up is an excellent addition.

[jdmulli]

In that price range, I'd just go with a Vibro Champ Reverb. I did, as a matter of fact. Five Watts into a ten inch speaker is just a sweet spot for me - small enough for home practice and big enough for gigs (mic'd up) if you don't need a sparkly clean tone. I actually played mine at an outdoor church service this past Sunday, and the sound guy said he was utilizing very little signal from the microphone.

I've bought and quickly returned a Tone Master DR before I found the Vibro Champ. I can't imagine that the PR would fare any better for my uses.

[FrankHudson]

Of course this is just "bench racing" as none of us have played the newly announced model. My thoughts are similar to Steve DeRosa's, but I'll try to add my own 2 cents.

For decades my amp hometown is an original blackpanel non-reverb Princeton that I purchased when they were just another used "practice amp." I love the sound. It doesn't do the clean clean clean big-headroom thing at high volumes, but the clean I can get at lower volumes is great. Mine has the original Oxford 10" speaker -- but I'm more a single-note line or double stop player, and I don't ask for clean low-end punch and definition.

Unlike the ToneMaster Twin or Super Reverb model you're not getting significant weight reduction over the original model or it's reissues, and that's a big part of what I (and I suspect, the market in general) likes about the TM series. Similarly, the low watt modes are less of a difference from what the original and reissue Princetons offer.

So, you're left with what is likely a good speaker and mic emulated direct out, which is a feature I like, but not enough to be interested in buying one.

If those reading this are interested in an inexpensive small, light-weight amp for home volume uses a used early 21st century Super Champ is worth considering. I don't find it a great amp for playing with a heavy-handed drummer, but it uses a hybrid tube-digital emulation design and can be operated solely from front panel knobs. The Super Champ is a modeling amp for those that hate the idea of computer or smartphone interfaces and wide tweaking choices.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

Of course this is just "bench racing" as none of us have played the newly announced model. My thoughts are similar to Steve DeRosa's, but I'll try to add my own 2 cents.

For decades my amp hometown is an original blackpanel non-reverb Princeton that I purchased when they were just another used "practice amp." I love the sound. It doesn't do the clean clean clean big-headroom thing at high volumes, but the clean I can get at lower volumes is great. Mine has the original Oxford 10" speaker -- but I'm more a single-note line or double stop player, and I don't ask for clean low-end punch and definition.

Unlike the ToneMaster Twin or Super Reverb model you're not getting significant weight reduction over the original model or it's reissues, and that's a big part of what I (and I suspect, the market in general) likes about the TM series. Similarly, the low watt modes are less of a difference from what the original and reissue Princetons offer.

So, you're left with what is likely a good speaker and mic emulated direct out, which is a feature I like, but not enough to be interested in buying one.

If those reading this are interested in an inexpensive small, light-weight amp for home volume uses a used early 21st century Super Champ is worth considering. I don't find it a great amp for playing with a heavy-handed drummer, but it uses a hybrid tube-digital emulation design and can be operated solely from front panel knobs. The Super Champ is a modeling amp for those that hate the idea of computer or smartphone interfaces and wide tweaking choices.

Frank, you make some very good points.

for sure one of the big advantages in these is the weight difference with tube powered models and the power attenuator settings.

That all does seem to be a bit under staged by the traditional tube version of the Princeton, as you point out.

[Chickee]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

………

If those reading this are interested in an inexpensive small, light-weight amp for home volume uses a used early 21st century Super Champ is worth considering. I don't find it a great amp for playing with a heavy-handed drummer, but it uses a hybrid tube-digital emulation design and can be operated solely from front panel knobs.

After reading more about the Fender line of Tone Master amplifiers it struck me how much of a precursor the little Fender Super Champ XDand X2 models were to the development of the Tone Master line.



The Super Champs were in market close to ten years with one model upgrade. The on board effects like reverb and tremolo were historic Fender, while the amp modeling was pretty straight forward, with a couple of hits and a few misses. But what’s important here is that the hits were right out of the Fender Playbook! the classic Fender amplifier sounds were represented front and center. They were the first six amps on the modeling dial. If you had any finesse turning knobs the results were amazing. The cleans were there, the grind was there, the crunch was there. Picking response was there, just like the real deal. Dig in and the amp would answer accordingly. Crystalline cleans all the way to a boiling ProSonic, all the historic models were there.



As well as the Tone Masters offer up the historic sounds of yesterday, I like to think they owe there place in the sun to the little amp that could.

The SuperChamps XD and X2

fd

[Glennwillow]

Wow, Frank!

You have two Super Champs? How cool is that? Do you run them as dual or stereo amps?

It's great to read about your experience with these little amps!

- Glenn

[Chickee]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Wow, Frank!

You have two Super Champs? How cool is that? Do you run them as dual or stereo amps?

It's great to read about your experience with these little amps!

- Glenn

Yes Glenn, I held on to these, especially when Fender was phasing them out and going to the Tone Master line of digital modeling amps.

Both are typical frankie style gear, all hot rodded up and personalized. You know like the line from the TV show SixMillionDollarMan…”we can rebuild him, we have the technology!”

Both are stuffed with high end Russian made Genalex Gold Lion tubes. The Burgundy X2 has an English made Celestion 8ohm, 30watt Greenback speaker replacement while the Sonic Blue X2 has an English made Celestion Gold 8 ohm 40watt speaker replacement installed.

The clarity and strength of these tubes along with the output efficiency of the premium speakers elevate these often overlooked amplifiers into boutique levels of performance.

They are very loud, articulate, crystal clean and burning hot as dialed in or needed . You can push any 8ohm cab with any speaker configuration you want. They are that efficient.

I’m still on the hunt for a Fender Special Run Seafoam Green edition of this X2. That is my quest, my holy grail.

Stay well Willow!


Oh, and no Glenn, I don’t run these in stereo. The concept was have an amp to grab and go that would be under 25lbs. This was the platform I chose to fill that niche.
fd

[Bushleague]

IMO the thing to remember is that anything digital is basically disposable. Like a phone or a laptop. Within half a decade its lost most of its value, and it will quite possibly end up in the trash before it makes it much past a decade.

A more budget modeling amp makes more sense as a disposable unit, and is likely about as relivent right now as a current Tone Master will be in a few years.

A quality tube amp is expensive but with some TLC it will keep working for a long time, and about the time a digital amp gets sent to the landfill you can still sell the tube amp and recoup all or most of your money.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

IMO the thing to remember is that anything digital is basically disposable. Like a phone or a laptop. Within half a decade its lost most of its value, and it will quite possibly end up in the trash before it makes it much past a decade.

A more budget modeling amp makes more sense as a disposable unit, and is likely about as relivent right now as a current Tone Master will be in a few years.

A quality tube amp is expensive but with some TLC it will keep working for a long time, and about the time a digital amp gets sent to the landfill you can still sell the tube amp and recoup all or most of your money.

Maybe, and maybe not

I had a few of the first version mustangs. They are both over 10 years old.

They never failed me, and the people who own them now are using them more than I did.

so 10+ years for amps that cost what these cost at the time, and they still work today like they did when new? To me still seems to be a winner.

[ataylor]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

IMO the thing to remember is that anything digital is basically disposable. Like a phone or a laptop. Within half a decade its lost most of its value, and it will quite possibly end up in the trash before it makes it much past a decade.

When phones or laptops become “disposable”, it’s typically because the operating systems and applications people want to use on these phones and laptops has outpaced the capabilities of the hardware.

That’s really not an issue at all with these Tone Master amps. What you see is what you get, and with care will still be what you see and get in a decade.

I could see this fear of disposability being more an issue to some degree with some of Fender’s other amps that require connectivity to apps and platforms to get the most out of the digital features, but the Tone Master amps aren’t dependent on software updates or any other products or platforms. Sure, there are and may yet be optional firmware updates that will undoubtedly cease at some point, but that’s not really the same as someone who gets frustrated trying to run current software or applications on an 8–10 year old phone or computer.

There may be improvements and tweaks and additions made to the Tone Master line down the road that might have someone wanting to “upgrade” at some point, but if someone is happy with the Tone Master now, there’s no reason to think they won’t be happy with it ten years from now.

I’d be just as worried about the long-term availability and sustainability of vacuum tubes and longevity/repairability of printed circuit boards as I am about digital lifespan of the Tone Master amps.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by ataylor

I’d be just as worried about the long-term availability and sustainability of vacuum tubes and longevity/repairability of printed circuit boards as I am about digital lifespan of the Tone Master amps.

Anyone who buys a vacuum-tube-based amp today because they fear "digital" replacement parts for a Tonemaster won't be available in 20 years time is betting on the wrong horse.

[29er]

I love my Tone Master DR and see no reason to grab a TM Princeton. However, if Fender ever offers a TM 59 tweed Bassman I'd be all over that. Being able to get a great 4x10 tweed tone at living room volume would be the ticket for me. Plus, a tweed amp just looks great in any situation. YMMV.