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#61
10-04-2022, 02:37 PM
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hovishead wrote:
"I can easily tell the difference between my D-18 and D-28 so yes." Several years ago I built a 'matched' pair of OMs using mahogany and spruce cut from the same boards for the top, back, and sides. Everything about them was controlled as closely as I could. When I got them done I made 'impulse spectrum' charts that showed them to be identical within the limits of measurement up to 1000 Hz, which is about the upper limit of close control in the build process. In blind playing/listening tests everybody could tell them apart easily. Certainly the sort of major differences you'd see making 'identical' guitars, with matched dimensions from IRW and Honduras mahogany would be 'easy to hear'. For one thing, the rosewood back would be much heavier. The question is what would be likely to happen if you used woods that are more alike in their properties? Soft maple and black walnut are very similar woods, and make instruments that sound about as similar as you'll find using the same wood. Osage Orange can be practically a drop-in replacement for BRW in terms of it's measurable properties, so one would expect very similar tone. How close do they have to be? 
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#62
10-04-2022, 02:43 PM
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this
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#63
10-04-2022, 03:08 PM
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My experience is that top wood sets a 'boundary' within which other factors (bracing, specific manufacturer approaches, etc.) can affect tonal/response.
The back and sides wood seems to either strengthen or reduce certain aspects already inherent in the top wood. Both of these can be minimized to a great degree by a talented luthier. In my case, I didn't approach buying for the first 2 decades with tone woods in mind. I bought what I liked, and then tried to figure out why certain guitars worked better than others. Ultimately I got rid of all guitars with mahogany top/back and sides and kept the spruce, cedar, rosewood ones. Coincidence? You be the judge.
__________________
-Gordon 1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway 1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway 2006 Larrivee L03-R 2009 Larrivee LV03-R 2016 Irvin SJ cutaway 2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread) K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter Notable Journey website Facebook page Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
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#64
10-04-2022, 03:42 PM
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I have two straight braced 28s and they are different enough to tell apart but i've owned three straight braced D18s over the years and none of them sounded like 28s. To my ears every D-18 I've owned has had a midrange warm and woody tone with a smooth low end. It took me a long time to buy a 28 because every one I tried had too much of a scooped tone in comparison to my preferences, but eventually I succumbed and now appreciate the difference. So I do agree that guitars with the same wood can sound very different, and there probably is some overlap with the variation in wood, but if there was such a thing as an average by numbers D-18 and D28, I'm pretty convinced I could tell them apart while playing blindfolded.
__________________
"I used to try to play fast, and it’s fun for a minute, but I always liked saxophone players. They speak on their instrument, and I always wanted to do that on the guitar, to communicate emotionally. When you write, you wouldn’t just throw words into a bowl. There has to be a beginning, middle and end. Same thing with phrasing on the guitar" Jimmie Vaughan
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#65
10-05-2022, 07:22 AM
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I know two Irish luthiers personally. They normally build guitars in batches of four but with different wood combinations. If I play a batch of guitars the similarities between them are far greater than the differences.
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#66
10-05-2022, 07:32 AM
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I don't know if I could pick mahogany from a blind hearing test, but I've developed a preference for it in my guitars after being a rosewood guy...
__________________
Emerald X20 Emerald X20-12 Fender Robert Cray Stratocaster Martin D18 Ambertone Martin 000-15sm
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#67
10-05-2022, 02:54 PM
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hovishead wrote:
"I have two straight braced 28s and they are different enough to tell apart but i've owned three straight braced D18s over the years and none of them sounded like 28s." As I said in my last post, if there is a consistent difference between mahogany and rosewood B&S it's probably mostly due to the density. If the backs are the same thickness the rosewood one will usually be heavier, and it's pretty easy to figure out how that should affect the sound. The other major difference on average between rosewoods and mahogany is that the rosewoods tend to have lower damping. The effect of that is less clear, but it certainly could be a factor. All woods vary. I've had mahogany backs that were very dense and stiff, with lower damping than usual, and rosewood ones that were more like mahogany. They may not overlap as much as the spruces do, but or even overlap at all, but I'd bet it would be possible to make two guitars with 'close' wood that would make it very hard to pick out the wood in a blind test. Manufacturers, of course, don't try to make them 'similar': they would probably rather they be as different as possible. Ironically, in a sense, the fact that they tend to work everything to the same dimensions facilitates this: it shows up the variation in the wood. Similar species tend to group together, but even within a given species there are differences between guitars. Everybody has slightly different tastes, and this makes it fairly easy for the player to find the one that suits them. Hand makers, who can take material variation into account, can actually build for a more consistent sound even across wood types, if they know how. So in a sense the B&S wood can impart a bit of a 'bias' in the tone, which the builder can either work with or against. It's usually easier to work with it, of course, but sometimes you get somebody who wants a 'rosewood' tone from mahogany, and it's nice to know how to approach that.
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#68
10-05-2022, 03:05 PM
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I think I can tell the difference, until I do blind tests. I still think I can tell, but would not bet a nickle on it. See a rosewood guitar, and you listen for that tone.
__________________
2007 Martin D 35 Custom 1970 Guild D 35 1965 Epiphone Texan 2011 Santa Cruz D P/W Pono OP 30 D parlor Pono OP12-30 Pono MT uke Goldtone Paul Beard squareneck resophonic Fluke tenor ukulele Boatload of home rolled telecasters "Shut up and play ur guitar" Frank Zappa
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#69
10-05-2022, 03:21 PM
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From a pure tone standpoint, the type of wood used (top or bottom) definitely makes a difference along with, of course, guitar body shape and size.
That said, once I plug in, it makes absolutely zero difference to me - and to everyone listening. Something I learned the hard way. If I was playing delicate ballads via a mic'd (external) guitar, I'd go out of my way to find the best tone I could. But since I'm playing old rock 'n roll songs amplified through an onboard pickup system, it doesn't matter as long as the guitar plays well and amplifies well. In my experience, as long as the songs are performed well, the audience does not know the difference or care.
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Call me Scott Cole Clark Angel 2 Thin Line | Emerald X7 Custom Woody | IRIS DF in sinker mahogany Methos1979: (Almost) Every guitar-related review I've written on AGF! Scott & Donna Music
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#70
10-05-2022, 05:35 PM
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I should also add that the player's posture/technique can (at times) mitigate any subtle differences between related tonewoods. At one of the Brazilian vs. EIR get-togethers I attended, I gave the edge to Brazilian Rosewood from the soundhole side of things (the audience). The problem for me is that it did not translate to the player's side of the guitar. I was allowed to test drive one of the Brazilian Rosewood guitars. My friend told me to stop learning on the guitar and to get my forearm off the soundboard, and to stop "choking" the life out of the guitar. The guitar's owner agreed that I needed to work on my posture/technique.
Tommy
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#72
10-05-2022, 06:15 PM
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#74
10-06-2022, 08:02 AM
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When you say, "leaning on the guitar" do you mean, leaning forward when you're sitting so that the guitar it touching/resting against your chest (so you can feel the vibrations better)??? (Guilty!) Maybe a new thread on this subject??? Turtle
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#75
10-06-2022, 08:41 AM
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I have two Larrivees. One is a L-03 and one an OM -03R. Bigger body Mahogany and smaller body Rosewood. When I put the same strings on the guitars they sound identical. Usually I put Mediums on the OM and lights on the L.
In 5 pages of discussion not one person mentioned Ovation. I realize there is a difference in the structure of an Ovation but it does not sound like a wood bodied guitar at all. I had an Ovation and my good friend had a D 35 Martin. There was a huge difference in sound. Which is why I sold the Ovation and bought a Martin. When I was searching for the right Martin for me, I played many D-18's that I liked but the HD-28 was the ONE. I still have it after 35 Years.
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