Fairly interesting article on Compressors

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I get that, but if you never push yourself to hear the adjustments in context, you'll never get there. Sure solo to hear it clearly...but then get out of solo to make your adjustment. Rinse & repeat.

I guess the understood that experience brings is: you never learn to ride without the training wheels if you never take the training wheels off. No one is good at this stuff to begin with. It's a learned/practiced skill. And the more you resist the practice the longer it remains elusive.

I'm giving the same advice I give to any noob assistant who starts with me. The struggle is worth it in the end.

Oh I agree and you definitely have to listen in context to gain the knowledge of what adjustments will do,
and have said so several times in this thread. I just do not have an aversion to adjusting in solo and then listening in context per.se. . But listening in solo and then adjusting in context is a great suggestion also , and I actually do that for the most part. For example as far as EQ and compression, even if on a specific track I basically always make any adjustment in full context

But to clarify I was speaking more to things like say for example a vocal de-essing . Now obviously learning the mic technique of ducking a bit when singing an (S) sound will do the most. BUT when a hissy (S) sound does get through, that I can hear in context. I find it helpful to solo the vocal and automate a single band narrow Q --EQ to reduce the peak of the hiss, BUT then as you say immediately audition in context -- As opposed to simply slapping an de-eser plugin on the entire track

[dnf777]

Cant help but notice how threads on compression always seem to be popular here on AGF. For me, it stems from a desire to better understand this process; in theory and in the studio. I have gathered a very basic understanding from using different pedals, rack mounts, and plug-ins in a “learn on the job” manner. Seems to me that good application of compression is often very subtle and difficult to dial in. I love these threads because after hearing the many angles, I inch slowly closer to a true understanding.

[runamuck]

Before mixing I always solo each track from beginning to end to catch noises, clicks from punch-ins and those types of problems. I want to know on which track they reside.

I don't solo anything once I start mixing. If I can't hear an effect or change to an effect in the context of a mix when added then why add it, why change it?

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I don't know any pro engineer who condones working in solo & I know a couple who literally never solo. Their position is if they can't hear it in the mix then it's not worth worrying about. Solo if for hunting down something that you can't pin down otherwise, like a click or buzz. Triage stuff, but not actual mixing. And I would never work on a group of instruments without everything else, it's the same thing as working in solo. You have no idea if it works with the rest of the mix. I'm sorry, but that's just bad advice.

Again. you're free to do what you want...but if you want to get better (and not waste so much time), avoid working in solo or in small groups. you're just making more work as you then have to adjust your adjustments to work in the full mix. Once you get good at working a mix, you can nail a pretty good static mix really quickly.

I don't know why the need to talk down or imply that I would want to "get better" by taking your advice. That's kind of bizarre to me. Maybe you think you're the only pro audio engineer on the forum. I don't know what's motivating it.
I'm not going to speak of myself but I have many accomplished friends in this biz and none of them spend time on forums pulling rank on people. I never see them shut down other people's methods (especially industry norms) or talk down to people as a means of selling their authority. In fact, a lot of them don't post on forums because they tire of people doing that.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Cant help but notice how threads on compression always seem to be popular here on AGF.

It's kind of ironic, given that the acoustic is an instrument that often gets little or no compression.

[zuzu]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Seemed like just a beginner's guide to compression.

I think the two biggest pieces of advice I can give on compression are to;
1) Don't look at the meter until after you've decided the sound is correct. Making musical decisions based on metering will not only limit your mixes, but will limit your ear from developing.

2) Go too far. It's sometimes hard to decide if your attack, release, threshold, etc are correct if you are creeping up on them. If you start by going to the extremes; too open, too heavy, etc, you can more easily find the sweet spot as you are dialing it back in. This doesn't apply to everything but it can be a huge help when you feel like you can't hear the subtleties and need a sort of magnifying lens.

#1 goes for live sound reinforcement as well. The most usable lesson I ever learned from a sound engineer was to find the knob on the board you feel needs adjusting, put your hand on it, turn away from the board and LOOK AT THE SOURCE of the sound you are adjusting, not the knob, not the meter. Kinda difficult with a cursor but doable. He told me your eyes will make you believe you hear something you're actually not hearing. I have found this to be the truth. Worked with a young fellow on the last project who was good at sound capture and a whiz in the digital chain realm, but his mixes were pretty bad. Probably because he stared transfixed at the stems scrolling by at all times while he mixed. I pretty much rebuilt all his mixes from the ground up, we didn't use any of them. Stare as you will, you can't see music on a screen.

#2 above is solid advice also.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Bowie

I don't know why the need to talk down or imply that I would want to "get better" by taking your advice. That's kind of bizarre to me. Maybe you think you're the only pro audio engineer on the forum. I don't know what's motivating it.
I'm not going to speak of myself but I have many accomplished friends in this biz and none of them spend time on forums pulling rank on people. I never see them shut down other people's methods (especially industry norms) or talk down to people as a means of selling their authority. In fact, a lot of them don't post on forums because they tire of people doing that.

I apologize if you took it as personal. It wasn't meant that way. It was meant as a healthy discussion. It's hard to convey the nuance of language with typing. So much is missed without tone, inflection & body language.

How I meant that & should have stated it to better convey my tone was: soloing during mixing doesn't work for me. I also know it doesn't work for any of my friends who are far more experienced, and I use that as a guide to see if I'm on the right track. I know trying to adjust things in the context of a full mix is hard, but the only way to get better at it is to do it. Sure, it will be hard at first, but everything gets easier with practice.

I promise to try to express myself better in the future.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Oh I agree and you definitely have to listen in context to gain the knowledge of what adjustments will do,
and have said so several times in this thread. I just do not have an aversion to adjusting in solo and then listening in context per.se. . But listening in solo and then adjusting in context is a great suggestion also , and I actually do that for the most part. For example as far as EQ and compression, even if on a specific track I basically always make any adjustment in full context

But to clarify I was speaking more to things like say for example a vocal de-essing . Now obviously learning the mic technique of ducking a bit when singing an (S) sound will do the most. BUT when a hissy (S) sound does get through, that I can hear in context. I find it helpful to solo the vocal and automate a single band narrow Q --EQ to reduce the peak of the hiss, BUT then as you say immediately audition in context -- As opposed to simply slapping an de-eser plugin on the entire track

I think we're on the same page. And I get it, the solo for a minute helps focus you on the sound you're dealing with. We all start there.The step after that is not needing to solo at all to make mix adjustments...but like anything else, it requires practice. That's all I really mean. If you want to be able to do that, you have to do it. It's the practice that makes it possible.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bowie

It's kind of ironic, given that the acoustic is an instrument that often gets little or no compression.

At first blush maybe, but then again a "little" compression is still compression, and 1/2 or more folks here are doing at least acoustic guitar and vocal mixes ( if not more instruments) and may be using one or more compressors on the vocal and or the mix.
Not to mention even some of the people doing solo instrumental acoustic guitar have stated they sometimes use compression

Myself I more often than not, have a comp on the vocal track and one on the mix bus for the entire mix ---

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Bowie

It's kind of ironic, given that the acoustic is an instrument that often gets little or no compression.

I don't where this comes from. Even the Tony McManus stuff has noticeable compression. John Mayer's acoustics are heavily compressed, although I admit whatever they're doing with the compression is really good. Alison Krause with Block and Tyminski, the acoustics are compressed. The Punch Brothers, particularly the mandolin (yes I know it's not a guitar) is noticeably compressed. I'm looking across the entire spectrum of recorded acoustic music and "no compression" on an acoustic guitar is extremely rare. Hens tooth rare.

For me, and it's only me, this is a very unusual observation.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I apologize if you took it as personal. It wasn't meant that way. It was meant as a healthy discussion. It's hard to convey the nuance of language with typing. So much is missed without tone, inflection & body language.

How I meant that & should have stated it to better convey my tone was: soloing during mixing doesn't work for me. I also know it doesn't work for any of my friends who are far more experienced, and I use that as a guide to see if I'm on the right track. I know trying to adjust things in the context of a full mix is hard, but the only way to get better at it is to do it. Sure, it will be hard at first, but everything gets easier with practice.

I promise to try to express myself better in the future.

I appreciate and respect that post. Cheers.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

I don't where this comes from. Even the Tony McManus stuff has noticeable compression. John Mayer's acoustics are heavily compressed, although I admit whatever they're doing with the compression is really good. Alison Krause with Block and Tyminski, the acoustics are compressed. The Punch Brothers, particularly the mandolin (yes I know it's not a guitar) is noticeably compressed. I'm looking across the entire spectrum of recorded acoustic music and "no compression" on an acoustic guitar is extremely rare. Hens tooth rare.

For me, and it's only me, this is a very unusual observation.

From years of taking with guys in the business. It never ceases to amaze me how many of them use little to no compression on acoustic.
Also, hearing compression on a commercial recording isn't the same as mixing. Keep in mind how much compression takes place in mastering. I've been surprised at times when someone told me they didn't use mix compression on an acoustic track that clearly has some compression.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bowie

From years of taking with guys in the business. It never ceases to amaze me how many of them use little to no compression on acoustic.
Also, hearing compression on a commercial recording isn't the same as mixing. Keep in mind how much compression takes place in mastering. I've been surprised at times when someone told me they didn't use mix compression on an acoustic track that clearly has some compression.

There are undoubtedly many "guys in the business" ( I assume you mean professional engineers ) who use no compression ( but again using "little compression " is still using compression is it not ? ) Just as there are also undoubtedly "pro's" who do use compression on acoustic guitar and thus again I still do not see much "irony" involved in a general discussion of compression on AGF, which was my point .

Also if you did not already know :: both Joseph Hanna and Steve=DupleMeter have decades of experience as professional engineers as well as probably years of talking with their peers. I am betting they understand the distinction between compression in mixing and in mastering --juss sayin'

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by KevWind

There are undoubtedly many "guys in the business" ( I assume you mean professional engineers ) who use no compression ( but again using "little compression " is still using compression is it not ? ) Just as there are also undoubtedly "pro's" who do use compression on acoustic guitar and thus again I still do not see much "irony" involved in a general discussion of compression on AGF, which was my point .

Also if you did not already know :: both Joseph Hanna and Steve=DupleMeter have decades of experience as professional engineers as well as probably years of talking with their peers. I am betting they understand the distinction between compression in mixing and in mastering --juss sayin'

I'm used to forums where a variety of perspectives are appreciated and I'm not getting that vibe in the recording section here. I find the "who's who" thing to be kind of crass and I'm not really here for that. I'll let you guys do your thing.

[Bowie]

Duplicate post (form bugged).