The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:08 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 42,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxm1611 View Post
Obviously I'm new to playing, but I have a question to this well experienced, sage group:

Do you read what you play off of tabs/notation when playing/practicing or do you memorize the songs you play. I want to do things right and efficient as I progress and I'm finding myself expending much energy to memorize AND learn how to play.

I apologize up front for such an elementary question, but I am extremely motivated and I am excited to have this new found addition to my life called playing music.
Hi rxm

I memorize things inadvertently. I'm not sure I was ever assigned the 'job' of memorizing music, it just 'happens'.

To me there is a huge difference between "Let me READ you a story…" and "Let me TELL you a story…"

The only times I resort to charts now-days is when thrown into a sight-reading situation. The last was a couple years back when an Irish band needed a guitar player for a gig at a museum opening, and their guitarist ended up in the hospital.

In 2˝ hours we played at least 50 Irish tunes, and we only had one rehearsal which lasted less than an hour. I read chord charts all night long.

Normally, I learn the songs I'm playing as a side effect of the learning process. I don't set out to memorize them, but after playing them so many times, they are memorized whether I set out to do so or not.

I'm particularly alert to song forms (A being verse, B being refrain, C being bridge etc), and I believe this contributes greatly to remembering the order of the things I memorize.



__________________

Baby #1.1
Baby #1.2
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Baby #05

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-20-2018, 08:28 AM
dkstott dkstott is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Middletown, Connecticut
Posts: 1,368
Default

If I'm playing with a group of friends and we're playing the standard "4 chords and a prayer" type of songs. I don't need anything but my memory. Chords progressions for them are imbedded in my brain. I may need a refresher on the words or I'll choose to not sing along at times.

A lot of the instrumental fingerstyle songs that I play at open mic have been memorized after hours and hours of practice. But all of them started with some arrangement sheet.
__________________
2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe
2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar
2016 Godin acoustic archtop
2011 Godin Jazz model archtop
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-21-2018, 02:39 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,129
Default

Memorizing is the most efficient way to learn to play.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:31 PM
KDepew's Avatar
KDepew KDepew is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 925
Default

I memorize songs and try to master one song at a time before learning more.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:19 PM
Ruppster Ruppster is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,002
Default

I play with six different band configurations, all of them play some of the same songs, some completely different. I've found I'm fine with songs I learned decades ago but memorizing new material is a challenge so I use Pages with my iPad. I found I can make custom set lists, look up requests on the fly and can build folders for each band.

My bass player teased me about it until recently when he went blank singing Emerson Lake and Palmer's "From the Beginning." I find I don't read the chart in the traditional sense, just glance down from time to time for word prompts to start verses. Helps me quite a bit and the iPad, mounted right on my boom mic, is pretty unobtrusive.

What ever gets you through the night...
__________________
Martin GPCPA1 Sunburst
Taylor 612ce
Baby Taylor
Ovation 1984 Collector's
Takamine FP317S New Yorker
Ibanez George Benson
Gibson 339
Gibson 2017 J45 Custom
Huss & Dalton CM sinker redwood
Emerald X20 Woody
Tom Anderson Crowdster Plus
Maton Nashville 808
Maton Messiah
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-24-2018, 09:59 AM
embo embo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 35
Default

I'm all about having a reference. Too many things in ol' Duder's head vying for brain cells, and I'd rather have the music in front of me and know I can give a good performance than try to look like I know it all and blow it because I missed a chord change or forgot a lyric.

PLUS...and this is a big plus to me...I like to play songs that the audience knows pretty well, and then get people out of the audience to come up and sing along, or grab a shaker or a tambourine (I probably don't have to mention there's often a bit of liquid confidence at play there). They have a lot better time if they can see the words and sing along, and they'll want to do it again, and pretty soon everyone wants to, and you've got yourself a hell of a fun time with crowd interaction.

Finally, sometimes people want to know if I can play a favorite of theirs. With my laptop, if I have an internet connection, I can usually dial up a tab and at least wing it enough for them to enjoy. I'm not great at ear training (though I keep trying to work on it). If the audience has fun, I'm having fun. That's about all that matters to me.

Oh, for those of you who go electronic, I just picked up one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078Y4Q1HF. It's awesome for scrolling or page turning, and it works with Bluetooth on Android, iPad, or Mac or Windows laptops. Well worth the money.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-25-2018, 02:32 PM
lpa53 lpa53 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 1,697
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymuso View Post
Read the material to learn it. Memorize the material to perform it.
+ 1 on this. Onc you know a song, playing while reading it will likely cause you to make more mistakes nd will definitely lessen the the musicality of your performance. I have all my songs on my iPad, but use them only to refresh my memory before playing.

On top of it all, memorization is great brain exercise.
__________________
1967 Aria Classical
1974 Guild D50
2009 Kenny Hill New World Player Classical
2009 Hoffman SJ
2011 Hoffman SJ 12

https://paulashley.weebly.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulAshley
https://www.reverbnation.com/paulashley
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-25-2018, 04:10 PM
tonyo tonyo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tyalgum New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpa53 View Post
+ 1 on this. Onc you know a song, playing while reading it will likely cause you to make more mistakes nd will definitely lessen the the musicality of your performance. I have all my songs on my iPad, but use them only to refresh my memory before playing.

On top of it all, memorization is great brain exercise.
I notice many people who play while reading have what I describe as a staccato sound to their songs. They are playing to the sheet of music and not to the feel of the song, the rhythm of the song. (disclaimer, this doesn't apply to orchestras).
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-29-2018, 03:30 PM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Stratford, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,035
Default

I have just shy of 500 song charts on my iPad. When I perform, I play from memory 90% of the time. Still, my steadily ageing brain likes to have a bit of a safety net.

Another benefit of having a chart available is that it allows you to vary your set list and respond to requests more easily. I would never advise that a performer make it a standard practice to read a chart while trying to communicate a song to an audience, but if you glance down at a reference in order to keep on track once in a while, I don't think anyone's gonna call the performance police.

If repertoire is limited to less than 100 songs. I think memory will usually serve.

YMMV.
__________________
Mike

2018 Furch D31TSR
2008 Martin OMCRE
1992 Takamine EAN20C
1996 Fender Telecaster w/ Barden Nashville set
1986 Charvel Model 5
2005 Art & Lutherie Ami
1980ish Hohner copy of a 'burst
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-29-2018, 05:14 PM
Wags Wags is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 230
Default

You don't own a song until you have it memorized.

My jazz band members hate hearing me tell them that....
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-01-2018, 11:29 AM
Todd Tipton Todd Tipton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 160
Default

I will share my personal experience (along with my strong bias). In my earliest training, I was made to memorize everything I played. As in any endeavor, there is no shortage of people who confuse knowledge with religious faith. I just accepted that I had to memorize everything. In fact, most of my practice time was spent simply trying to memorize everything I played.

Memorization was always difficult for me. It wasn't that I didn't have a firm grasp on the wealth of knowledge and information on memorization. It wasn't that I didn't fully understand many different methods for effective and efficient memorization. I understood those things well. I still understand those things well. And as an educator, I am able to offer this information and knowledge to my students. But memorization is still a problem for me.

Many years ago, I moved to a new town to begin graduate school. That same year, I had already planned a handful of performances at various colleges and universities in the area. A now colleague of mine and gold medal performer who I hadn't met at the time was head of the guitar program at a particular university. I was performing at this university. We had only chatted on the phone, and I knew he was sitting in the audience. We would meet for the very first time for a late dinner after my performance.

Considering the situation, the nerves should have set in. I was in a new town. I was going to meet someone important. I knew that person was in the audience. I knew that person was a far better player than me. But I wasn't nervous. I felt I had chosen my repertoire wisely. It was well within my capabilities. And I felt I knew the music well. There was simply no reason to be nervous save for the usual jitters I think anyone would have before such a performance.

I can't remember the first piece I played. It was something small and quiet. But I remember the 2nd piece I played: Bach's Suite in E minor, BWV 996. This is a large scale work with six movements and clocking in at nearly 20 minutes. This was a piece I had worked on for nearly two years. I knew the piece so well that at anytime, without a guitar, I could play any movement in my head from memory.

Back to my performance that night. The first piece went well and I was riding a healthy wave of adrenaline and mental poise and focus. Somewhere early in the 2nd movement of the Bach, and without any warning what so ever, I blanked out. I simply stopped playing because I could not remember the next note. Each and every second felt like an eternity. There was a significant audience with all eyes on the stage. On stage was only me and a guitar. And I was sitting in silence because I couldn't remember the next note.

At this point I jumped to the first phrase I could remember. Unfortunately, it was a phrase before my memory lapse. After a few moments of playing (now totally shaken up and it greatly affecting my physical ability to play this demanding music), I hit the exact same spot again. So now two times in just a few moments, there is silence. Just me, a guitar, and everyone's eyes on me. I remember thinking in the moment that I didn't know how to end the movement, and I had four more to go!

I do remember ending the movement in a less than adequate way. I also remember having more memory lapses in the rest of the Bach. While I didn't have any other memory lapses save for the Bach, it really shook me up. I never recovered that night. The entire performance was mediocre because my anxiety robbed me of my physical abilities to play the instrument.

It is hard to describe the humiliation and shame I felt after the performance. I was having to be polite, shake peoples hands, and take their compliments well. And the last person in line? The head of the guitar program, a world class performer. Shaking his hand for the very first time. Meeting someone important that I would continue to work with and know for the rest of my life. It was a horrible experience. In fact, it was one of two of the worst experiences I've ever had on stage. (I'll BRIEFLY share the second experience when I finish this).

At this point, I made a decision about memorization. Never again would I walk out on a stage without sheet music. I was done. Forget it. From that point on, I began to discover the sheer joy of learning new music! And all that time I had spent memorizing in the past? Now it could be used learning more of the music I loved and desired to perform! What a relief!

With experience I did learn a few important things from always using the music:

1. When there are significant left hand jumps, it is often necessary to memorize those sections. I've found that the eye has absolutely no problem knowing when to leave the music and go to the fret board. It is GETTING back to the music that is the problem! In my early practice, I would do nothing to solve this problem. I would allow as much time as was needed to return to the music (I knew I would fix it later). My eyes would find certain spots in the music. Through trial and error they would choose other spots slightly ahead or behind other previously chosen spots. After a while, my eyes would find a consistent spot that worked best in the music. At this point, I would mark the spot with a colored highlighter.

I solved the problem. I got to have my cake and eat it too. I was able to, as a whole, eliminate memorizing music. With the help of colored highlighters, I developed the skill of watching my hands as needed, and returning to the music as needed. When necessary due to multiple difficult passages, I even used different colors to avoid the eyes finding the wrong place.

2. The second thing I learned was more gradual and subtle. Yet it is very important! If students and other players are aware of the mistakes I made, they can learn from them and prevent them from happening to themselves. When you are always watching your hands, assuming good technique and mechanics, the hand-eye coordination is a significant tool in eliminating and minimizing counter-productive tension. It is something I took for granted.

When my eyes were always on the music, my hands (mostly the left, but both) gradually added excess tension to nearly every task. I can give an exaggerated example of this. Imagine playing a relatively simple passage on the guitar that you know very well. Imagine the hand-eye coordination you probably take for granted. Now, imagine playing it without a guitar only in your head. Again, no problem. Now, imagine trying to play the same passage without the benefit of watching your hands. It is very likely that you will "muscle your way through it" to make sure you hit the correct strings and frets.

Yeah. Exactly.

Years of not paying attention to what I just describe significantly lowered my ability to play. More complex movements were becoming more and more difficult, or even impossible. Speed was gradually decreasing. This isn't something that happened over night. Smoking cigarettes and eating cheeseburgers, and lack of exercise won't kill you overnight either. It crept up on me.

So, I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. There was no way that I would return to memorizing music again in any significant way. But, because I figured out one of the pitfalls, I was able to begin addressing the problem and how it was related to losing hand-eye coordination. More and careful attention was spend working with eliminating counter-productive tension in all of my exercises. More of the same attention was spent in the music I play by simply putting passages in my short term memory, and allowing hand-eye coordination to again play a part in the learning process.

Imagine trying to be a good free-throw shooter in basketball blind-folded! That is kind of what it is like playing from music. If I want to be a good free-throw shooter blind-folded, I first kind of have to be a good free-throw shooter. If I want to play from the music without counter-productive tension, I also need to spend significant time letting hand-eye coordination assist in the process.

*********

In summary, I don't memorize music in a significant way anymore. I proudly use my sheet music and I am much happier for it. I spend more time learning new music as a result and I am more confidant on stage. I mark up the sheet music so that I can watch my hands when necessary. And, I tailor my exercises and repertoire practice to make sure I don't muscle my way through everything because I'm not watching my hands.

(I said I would briefly tell the second story. Years had past since that horrible night I butchered the Bach on stage with serious memory lapses. Playing from the music on stage was something I had grown very comfortable with and was something I proudly accepted. One night I had a performance out of town. About thirty minutes before I walked on stage, I realized that I forgot to bring nearly half of my sheet music. Ouch. Let's just say that was a very bad night.)

Last edited by Todd Tipton; 05-01-2018 at 11:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-01-2018, 11:52 AM
Placida Placida is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,506
Default

I start out with paper lyrics/chords until I memorize the song. I'll refer back to the paper if I forget, and if I do it's usually the lyrics that I have trouble remembering.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:52 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada Prairies
Posts: 2,957
Default

In my teens I had dozens of songs memorized, now in my 50s I can't even remember what kinds of songs they were. There are a few that stayed with me, and a few new ones that I thought I had memorized, but put me in front of a few people to sing and my memory will be wiped clean. So I have a bunch of folders with printed songs on them as a main crutch. I also bought a tablet and loaded some apps and songs on, but it's just too much hassle dealing with scrolling and other technical issues. Also prefer the printed way, because I can scribble on notes and personal revisions, or exotic chord diagrams quickly (stuff that can be easily forgotten).
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-02-2018, 09:44 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Washington State
Posts: 5,424
Default

I'm a classically trained violin player. I'm self taught on guitar and mandolin. I have good sight-reading skills, but I learn new material mostly by ear. Lyrics I usually look up and print out. It usually takes me about 2 - 3 days to get the lyrics down. I normally play 2 hour shows, all from memory.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:46 AM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Paper/PDF/Guitar Pro. Depending on my mood, length of tune and toner levels in my printer I will rely on a quasi memory/sight reading sort of deal. I can memorize some things but not others. I had a mini stroke last year which actually made my memory a little bit better for whatever reason.

I play fingerstyle and every note in a tune can be considered a chord position. Not that it's an excuse, but that's a lot to remember. The more melody driven the piece, the easier it is for me to memorize.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=