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Old 06-11-2019, 04:27 PM
thegreatgumbino thegreatgumbino is offline
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Default Building First Amplified Setup > Down the Rabbit Hole

First and foremost, thanks to all you who share your wealth of knowledge! I've learned a tremendous amount reading the Amplification forum.

I'm new to amplification, and oh boy, what a rabbit hole! This thread is really just me thinking out loud. I'm a bedroom strummer/fingerpicker/singer with a Gibson J45 Vintage (no pickup). I'm looking to put together my first amplified rig. I'm hoping it will help me improve my playing/singing and to prepare for some small group/open mic stuff, eventually. Occasionally, I play sing with a buddy, so the ability to plug in 2 mics & 2 guitars is a bonus.

I've read a lot about the recommended amps/pedals/mics/setups on the board. Initially, my wishlist was a LBM, Trance SBT p/u, TC Play Acoustic, Digitech Trio + or a Beatbuddy, and a tbd vocal mic. But, further reading has lead me another direction:

1) Bose S1 Pro or L1 Compact
2) Bose T1 Tonematch
3) DPA d:vote core 4099 or ATM350a microphone for guitar
4) Sennheiser e935 mic for vocals

I like the size and features of the S1 Pro, but a used L1 Compact is not much more. I'd like to pick up a T1 Tonematch regardless of which I get. The L1C would obviously give me room to grow. I like that both are very portable. The T1 would require plugin power regardless. I'd rather not have to deal with a stand for the S1.

The more I read and think about p/u's, the more I think I'd rather mic the guitar with either a DPA d:vote core 4099 or the Audio Technica ATM350a. I have a love for the sound of DPA mics from the days of my portable concert recording rig (DPA 4023), but they are almost twice the cost of the ATM350a. DPA is $620 with the guitar attachment. AT is $349 with guitar attachment. I really like the look of the AT clip. It looks to be much sturdier and less prone to falling off the guitar. For that reason, I'm curious if the AT clip could be used with the DPA (might take some modification). I like the ability to use the mic on multiple guitars and not to have to install a p/u in my J45 Vintage, the ability to move the mic for desired sound, and that the mic would move with me. The DPA has the advantage of the kevlar reinforced cable and the fact that the cable is removable from the capsule, which makes it easily replaceable.

Any insight or feedback from users of this gear would be appreciated.

Last edited by thegreatgumbino; 06-11-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:19 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Using a mic, regardless of how good it may be, as the only source to amplifying an acoustic guitar in a live setting is dangerous and, despite sonic goals, may not work well. Of course, the venue will tend to dictate how well it will work.

A safer alternative, which can closely approach the sonic and behavioral goals of "mic only", is to use a pickup and a mic. Granted, such a signal chain is more complex, but with proper settings and appropriate gear an excellent result will occur.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:20 PM
thegreatgumbino thegreatgumbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Using a mic, regardless of how good it may be, as the only source to amplifying an acoustic guitar in a live setting is dangerous and, despite sonic goals, may not work well. Of course, the venue will tend to dictate how well it will work.

A safer alternative, which can closely approach the sonic and behavioral goals of "mic only", is to use a pickup and a mic. Granted, such a signal chain is more complex, but with proper settings and appropriate gear an excellent result will occur.
Thanks for the reminder. I've read good and bad about this approach. I figure for the bedroom and the occasional get togethers it might be worth a shot. I actually thought about getting a single LD condenser to mic both guitar and vocals.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:52 PM
thegreatgumbino thegreatgumbino is offline
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I went to GC and played the LBM, S1, and L1C last night. I went in thinking I would want the L1C (and still wonder if I should get it over the S1), but the demo unit in the store was wonky. I think the guitar input jack was bad as the cable worked on multiple amps. Additionally, I have seen a couple used L1C's for the same price as the new S1. The portability of the S1 and the Bluetooth capability is pretty handy for sure.

In the end, I brought home a Bose S1 Pro, Shure Beta 57a for the guitar, and a Sennheiser e935 for vocals. First time singing and playing amplified, which was pretty intimidating at first, but fun once I let loose. Amplification is quite the rabbit hole!

I want to pickup a Digitech Trio + to play with, but the Ditto x2 looks to be a better looper. I'm still toying with the idea of getting a T1 ToneMatch so 1) my buddies can plug in and 2) I believe I need to convert the mic XLR to a TRS to run to most pedals. Am I thinking correctly that I can run the 57A > T1 > Pedal(s) > S1? It seems like I have to run the volume pretty hot on the S1 to hear the guitar. I realize this is partly a function of how close the mic is, but will adding a preamp (T1) with Gain help this? I realize there are cheaper mixers, but it seem seems the T1 is a perfect match for the S1/L1C. Additionally, I would like to be able to monitor with headphones. I know the Digitech has a headphone jack. Is there another option to gain this functionality?
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:51 AM
Murphy Slaw Murphy Slaw is offline
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I'm a huge fan of the little S1-Pro, and used it's 2 mic inputs for guitar (or mandolin, or resonator) /voice and lined out to my L1-Compact all the time with an acoustic duo.

People use mic's all the time in live venues, including Dave Rawlings, Gillian Welch, David Lindley, Milk Carton Kids, Kristin Andreassen, quite often Punch Brothers, this list could go on for pages.

Some acoustic players have pedalboards larger than David Gilmour and Eric Johnson.

I'm becoming a "Naturalist" and prefer an acoustic tone uncolored by compression and digital do-dads.

Best of luck in your quest.
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Old 06-22-2019, 06:09 AM
Murphy Slaw Murphy Slaw is offline
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However, I still DO wear pants.....

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Old 06-22-2019, 07:17 AM
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Methos1979 Methos1979 is offline
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IF you're always going to have/use/need AC power only then the L1C is a great unit. I've never heard a bad one in the wild (live). If you think you might need/prefer battery or just the ultimate in lightweight then the S1 just can't be beat. We've not got two of them and the options are endless. For the ultimate in minimalism it's just my guitar, her mic, directly into the S1 on the ground tilted back behind us. We also use single S1 on a pole, double S1's on a single pole, two S1's on two poles, one S1 on a pole and one as a monitor. All through a digital battery power mixer with two mics and my guitar which gives us more inputs for friends to join us on stage. We never carry/need/use any power cords. We run off battery power even in places where battery power is readily available. Setup is super fast and easy.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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Chriscom Chriscom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatgumbino View Post
Am I thinking correctly that I can run the 57A > T1 > Pedal(s) > S1? It seems like I have to run the volume pretty hot on the S1 to hear the guitar. I realize this is partly a function of how close the mic is, but will adding a preamp (T1) with Gain help this? I realize there are cheaper mixers, but it seem seems the T1 is a perfect match for the S1/L1C. Additionally, I would like to be able to monitor with headphones. I know the Digitech has a headphone jack. Is there another option to gain this functionality?
You can run the signal chain that way for your guitar but what's the routing for you vocal mic now? I'm too lazy to check all the T1 routing (and I'm not super expert, would love someone else to chime in), but what I've seen and done is collect all the signals in the mixer and send them out through the master out to the PA, in this case your S1. You could also stick to the chain above and take your vocal mic straight to the S1 but using the T1 just to boost the guitar mic signal is a pretty expensive way to do it. I *think* you could just get an XLR>1/4 inch adapter and go 57A>pedal>T1>S1.

Also gotta say I've never seen an SM57A used as a guitar mic, so maybe this is not the ideal mic-the-guitar solution and signal strength is part of that, but I don't know.

Now, more than a few S1 owners agree they have to run the volume pretty hot on the mic input based on chats over on the Bose user forum. If I understand the issue, you have all the volume you need, it's just that all the fine-tuning on the upper end is pushed up in the last 1/4 of the volume knob instead of spread out more evenly. But yeah a signal boost will solve that problem--maybe the pedal itself would solve that problem.

I still think you're gonna have feedback issues using the 57A as you sole guitar pickup once you head out for gigs, super-cardioid or not; there are just too many frequencies bouncing around your typical bar/brewhouse/coffeehouse etc especially where you end up being physically located. Artists on stages separated from audiences use them frequently, maybe less so when they're down there with the rest of us. But it'll be cool if it works and no doubt some have found a way to make it work with careful placement and vigilance.

About the T1. It is a great mixer, obviously a great match for the L1 Compact and (I have both) and works super with the S1 from what I've heard. But you're paying for some features you won't be using. As you already know, you need a power brick instead of running simultaneous power and signal through the Cat 5 cable that does that job with the higher-end units like the L1 Model 2. There's a library of mics and guitars in the T1 to help achieve ideal sound reproduction and your unusual guitar/mic signal chain means you likely won't find that combo pre-loaded--you'll still find great sound, just perhaps less conveniently. Another great feature is to save scenes, that is, settings for different places/instruments whatever--awesome if you use it.

The headphone output on the Digitech Trio is, by design, just be for your guitar and the Digitech "band," right? So you're not listening to yourself sing?

Long way of saying the S1, L1 Compact etc. will also sound great with any decent mixer, including my Yamaha MG10XU ($199) and the Soundcraft Notepad 12FX ($179), both of which have a headphone output. Lowest Reverb price for a used T1 right now is $365, I think saw one on Ebay for $295.

Lots of different ways to go. Sorry for the long post!
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:40 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Almost any mixer would work for your pedal routing and headphone need.

For the pedal, you use the FX send on a channel you have the guitar plugged into, the FX return is your pedal-ized sound.

I'm pretty sure you cannot use the Ditto X2 with a mic plugged directly into it - or if you did the sound would be low, forcing you to crank up the volume (and noise). Guitar pedals, as a general rule, do not have the pre-amp in them allowing use of a mic.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:49 AM
thegreatgumbino thegreatgumbino is offline
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Thanks for the replies.

Prior to this guitar, I had a 2015 Gibson SCSJ Supreme with the Trance Amulet M-VT, which was one of the reasons I purchased the guitar. *I'm probably going*this route for the 2018 J45 Vintage. *I need to measure the bridge plate in the Vintage to make sure the transducers will fit. *On the SCSJ, the bridge plate was too small to fit them properly, which created issues.

I borrowed a Martin D Jr. with electronics to try out with the S1. *The ease of use is a plus, and the sound is much louder than the SM57a Beta mic'ing the guitar. *Granted, I could get a mixer to plug the mic in and increase the gain for more sound. *

Current thought process is J45V > Trance Amulet M-VT > Bose S1 Pro for easy portable use. *Some wishishlist items I'd like to play with*include:

1) Mixer (either a used T1 or a battery powered option) to allow for a buddy to plug in guitar & mic*as well. Also want the headphone output.

2) ToneDexter

3) Digitech Trio +

4) Ditto X2 Jam Looper

5) TC Helicon Play Acoustic
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