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  #1  
Old 06-25-2019, 02:28 PM
cmac cmac is offline
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Default ADI21 versions and gain

I read here that old versions of the ADI21 had much lower output than the current version. Is that correct? If so, the one that I just got off eBay is an old one because it's basically useless as a preamp.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:45 PM
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I read here that old versions of the ADI21 had much lower output than the current version. Is that correct? If so, the one that I just got off eBay is an old one because it's basically useless as a preamp.
Hi cmac

Never heard that about old or new versions (or that there are old/new models). I've had mine for 6 years…I don't know where that puts it on your timline of old/new. Mine works just fine with my guitars (and friend's guitars).

Hope you are referring to the Behringer V-Tone Acoustic Driver DI ADI21 - CliCk

If you turn the blend up all the way, and step on the button - that activates the preamp. 'Level' sets the output volume. Never had any issues on mine with gain. I've never operated mine with AC power (only internal battery).

Hope you get it to work. Also hope someone didn't rip you off on eBay.



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Old 06-25-2019, 05:06 PM
Mr Bojangles Mr Bojangles is offline
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I have two of the older versions which have separate switches for PAD and GND lift. The newer version only has one switch to control both, but other than that, they should operate the same. The older ones that I have definately function as a preamp.
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:33 PM
ricdoug ricdoug is offline
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@cmac , turn up the blend control and you'll be fine.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:44 AM
cmac cmac is offline
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Ok, so the one I have has two separate switches for -20dB pad and ground lift, so it looks like an older model.

In a post from a few years back I read "Ive had 4 of these things and never got distortion , What I got on 3 was very low output." (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...9&postcount=12).

It could just be that my expectations are too high. The guitar I'm trying to make it work with has a JJB 330 passive pickup and I'm playing fingerstyle (pads, not nails) so there isn't much signal to work with. I have a K&K Pure XLR preamp that works fine with the guitar, but of course it has a gain control. I was hoping that the ADI21 would do a similar job, but I think it is designed for stronger input signals.

As for turning up the blend, I can do so but the bass and mid then has to be turned down because they overwhelm the tone. So I back off on the blend a bit, turn down the low and mid, and in the end it is louder if I bypass the unit with the footswitch, i.e. use it just as a DI.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:32 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by cmac View Post
Ok, so the one I have has two separate switches for -20dB pad and ground lift, so it looks like an older model.

In a post from a few years back I read "Ive had 4 of these things and never got distortion , What I got on 3 was very low output." (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...9&postcount=12).

It could just be that my expectations are too high. The guitar I'm trying to make it work with has a JJB 330 passive pickup and I'm playing fingerstyle (pads, not nails) so there isn't much signal to work with. I have a K&K Pure XLR preamp that works fine with the guitar, but of course it has a gain control. I was hoping that the ADI21 would do a similar job, but I think it is designed for stronger input signals.

As for turning up the blend, I can do so but the bass and mid then has to be turned down because they overwhelm the tone. So I back off on the blend a bit, turn down the low and mid, and in the end it is louder if I bypass the unit with the footswitch, i.e. use it just as a DI.
With the blend down, you are reducing the amount of preamplified signal that makes it's way to the output. The way you are using it, it's a passive DI and will have low gain issues. If the tone isn't working for you with the blend up, then you might want to consider another DI/preamp that works better with the 1MOhm impedance recommendations from K&K and JJB. The ADI21 has a higher impedance input.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:58 AM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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Originally Posted by cmac View Post
Ok, so the one I have has two separate switches for -20dB pad and ground lift, so it looks like an older model.

In a post from a few years back I read "Ive had 4 of these things and never got distortion , What I got on 3 was very low output." (https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...9&postcount=12).

It could just be that my expectations are too high. The guitar I'm trying to make it work with has a JJB 330 passive pickup and I'm playing fingerstyle (pads, not nails) so there isn't much signal to work with. I have a K&K Pure XLR preamp that works fine with the guitar, but of course it has a gain control. I was hoping that the ADI21 would do a similar job, but I think it is designed for stronger input signals.

As for turning up the blend, I can do so but the bass and mid then has to be turned down because they overwhelm the tone. So I back off on the blend a bit, turn down the low and mid, and in the end it is louder if I bypass the unit with the footswitch, i.e. use it just as a DI.
I also play fleshy fingerstyle with the JJB 330. I also have the ADI21 and a K&K Pure Preamp. The K&K seems to be a bit more flexible but I'm actually using the ADI21 more because I play both fingerstyle and strumming songs.

I just leave it in bypass mode for the fingerstyle because it then acts like a simple preamp with no settings. On the strumming songs, I engage the button but have everything turned down a bit so the output actually decreases. A bit counter-intuitive, but it makes it easier to just tap the button between songs than reach for the belt pack and turn the volume up and down.

Does that make sense at all?
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:17 AM
cmac cmac is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
With the blend down, you are reducing the amount of preamplified signal that makes it's way to the output. The way you are using it, it's a passive DI and will have low gain issues. If the tone isn't working for you with the blend up, then you might want to consider another DI/preamp that works better with the 1MOhm impedance recommendations from K&K and JJB. The ADI21 has a higher impedance input.
OK. I had assumed that the blend wouldn't change the output level, it would just change the balance between the dry signal and the tube effect signal. I didn't figure that the tube effect signal would be significantly stronger than the dry side.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:19 AM
cmac cmac is offline
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Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
I also play fleshy fingerstyle with the JJB 330. I also have the ADI21 and a K&K Pure Preamp. The K&K seems to be a bit more flexible but I'm actually using the ADI21 more because I play both fingerstyle and strumming songs.

I just leave it in bypass mode for the fingerstyle because it then acts like a simple preamp with no settings. On the strumming songs, I engage the button but have everything turned down a bit so the output actually decreases. A bit counter-intuitive, but it makes it easier to just tap the button between songs than reach for the belt pack and turn the volume up and down.

Does that make sense at all?
Yes, makes a lot of sense. My other guitar, with the K&K pickup, is usually strummed but sometimes it is picked and I do struggle to hear it through the IEMs sometimes, so I can see the sense in your setup. I'll have a think about that as a possible option.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac View Post
…As for turning up the blend, I can do so but the bass and mid then has to be turned down because they overwhelm the tone. So I back off on the blend a bit, turn down the low and mid, and in the end it is louder if I bypass the unit with the footswitch, i.e. use it just as a DI.
Hi cmac (and others)

The point of a preamplifier is to boost the weaker signal of a passive pickup up to solid levels without distortion, and then in the case of the ADi21 (and other active preamplifiers), adjust the tone, and the output. This keeps a solid signal, and less noise from the system.

The purpose of the tone controls is to shape the sound, and the master level out is what keeps it from overdriving the next gear in line (be it a mixer or amp). You need to feed the maximum gain possible from each piece of gear to the next so you don't introduce self-noise (the inherent noise gear makes).

There is a proper order to setting up gear with multiple input and output volumes, and multiple tone controls. In most cases the preamp has an input volume, and output (master) volume. Most mixers have an input gain on each channel, and an output volume on the channel, and the mixer itself has an additional output volume.

Acoustic amps often have a channel volume for the instrument (input gain), and a Master volume for setting stage/room volumes.

A smart process for setting up multiple-stages is…

A simple Gain Staging Process…
  • To set up gear, you should start with the tone settings flat on every piece of gear in the chain - the preamp, the mixer channel and/or the amp. On an ADI21, tone knobs should be 12 o'clock (straight up), and the sweepable mid at the dot.
  • Make sure you are sending a solid signal to the next piece of gear without overdriving the input of the next piece of gear. On an ADI21, just turn the blend (input gain) all the way up…there is no way with a passive JJB pickup you will overdrive the input circuits (not even a K&K Pure mini will overdrive them), so you might as well benefit from the preamp being all the way up.
  • Set the tone on the device.
  • Set the output volume from the device to feed a solid signal to the PA board, or stage amp, without overdriving the input of the board/amp.
  • The input gain control on the board, or input control on an amp should be adjusted next so it's solid, but not overdriving. Then adjust the output volume of the mixer channel or the amp.
  • Lastly tweak the tone on the mixer or amp to supplement the tone settings of the preamp.

This may seem a bit complex, but it solves a lot of issues people experience when just plugging in things and twisting knobs. By starting at the original input gear and working one's way through the chain, you end up with better sound and predictable/controllable tone.



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Old 06-26-2019, 09:59 AM
cmac cmac is offline
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On an ADI21, just turn the blend (input gain) all the way up…
That's the problem for me - I want the gain, but not all of the effect.

Yesterday I tried recording via the ADI21 into my audio interface. I had to crank the gain on the audo interface way up and even then the signal reaching the DAW was just a little ripple on the waveform, and the S/N far too low to be usable. With blend up full it's getting towards something useful, but I find the tube effect at that point to be excessively muddy on a guitar that already has lots of overtones and depth.

Now, it's possible that this unit is faulty (but unlikely, since it seems to work in all other respects) but I think it's just a problem of their specific design decisions. The ADI21 has to be able to handle relatively strong inputs, e.g. from active pickups, without lots of distortion and mess so I think it is designed to have low gain so that it works for lots of people most of the time. Adding a gain control would, I guess, have made it less plug & play for their target market.

If they had designed it with a gain control before the blend and tone stage then it would probably be ideal but for whatever reason (maybe cost, maybe simplicity) they didn't. But that's fair enough - it's a low cost product intended for a certain function, which is not quite what I wanted it to do.
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Old 06-26-2019, 11:29 AM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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That's the problem for me - I want the gain, but not all of the effect.

Yesterday I tried recording via the ADI21 into my audio interface. I had to crank the gain on the audo interface way up and even then the signal reaching the DAW was just a little ripple on the waveform, and the S/N far too low to be usable. With blend up full it's getting towards something useful, but I find the tube effect at that point to be excessively muddy on a guitar that already has lots of overtones and depth.

Now, it's possible that this unit is faulty (but unlikely, since it seems to work in all other respects) but I think it's just a problem of their specific design decisions. The ADI21 has to be able to handle relatively strong inputs, e.g. from active pickups, without lots of distortion and mess so I think it is designed to have low gain so that it works for lots of people most of the time. Adding a gain control would, I guess, have made it less plug & play for their target market.

If they had designed it with a gain control before the blend and tone stage then it would probably be ideal but for whatever reason (maybe cost, maybe simplicity) they didn't. But that's fair enough - it's a low cost product intended for a certain function, which is not quite what I wanted it to do.
Yeah, I think something may be wrong with your unit. On mine, the gain turned all the way up doesn't change the volume so much as use more of the effects. With the pedal switched 'off', the signal is just as high as when it's 'on' with the 'gain' and 'blend' turned up. That's why I can use the 'on' setting to actually bring my signal DOWN for use with plectrum strumming.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac View Post
That's the problem for me - I want the gain, but not all of the effect.

Yesterday I tried recording via the ADI21 into my audio interface. I had to crank the gain on the audo interface way up and even then the signal reaching the DAW was just a little ripple on the waveform, and the S/N far too low to be usable. With blend up full it's getting towards something useful, but I find the tube effect at that point to be excessively muddy on a guitar that already has lots of overtones and depth.

Now, it's possible that this unit is faulty (but unlikely, since it seems to work in all other respects) but I think it's just a problem of their specific design decisions. The ADI21 has to be able to handle relatively strong inputs, e.g. from active pickups, without lots of distortion and mess so I think it is designed to have low gain so that it works for lots of people most of the time. Adding a gain control would, I guess, have made it less plug & play for their target market.

If they had designed it with a gain control before the blend and tone stage then it would probably be ideal but for whatever reason (maybe cost, maybe simplicity) they didn't. But that's fair enough - it's a low cost product intended for a certain function, which is not quite what I wanted it to do.
Hi again cmac

Sounds like you are have an interesting time.

You do realize that recording via pickups and interfaces is some of the worst sounding acoustic guitar recordings ever, right?

To quote someone in the Recording section of AGF, "The worst mic will still sound better than the best pickup when recording gutiars."

Pickups and preamps are designed to sound good when they come out of speakers after going through amps and boards…the direct sound is sorely lacking.

For $150, The Fishman Platinum Stage would improve your preamp situation immensely. It's kind of a hidden gem among preamps. A RedEye will also improve it immensely (plus no meaningful tone controls to mess with).



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  #14  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:03 PM
cmac cmac is offline
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Hi again cmac

Sounds like you are have an interesting time.

You do realize that recording via pickups and interfaces is some of the worst sounding acoustic guitar recordings ever, right?

To quote someone in the Recording section of AGF, "The worst mic will still sound better than the best pickup when recording gutiars."

Pickups and preamps are designed to sound good when they come out of speakers after going through amps and boards…the direct sound is sorely lacking.

For $150, The Fishman Platinum Stage would improve your preamp situation immensely. It's kind of a hidden gem among preamps. A RedEye will also improve it immensely (plus no meaningful tone controls to mess with).
Don't worry, I have several microphones for recording. The only reason I was recording via the ADI21 was to get an idea of the signal strength it puts out.

My go-to preamp remains the K&K Pure XLR. It works well with the JJB 330 and the K&K pure mini (I have one of each), so it's no big deal that the ADI21 didn't work out. It was cheap enough to give it a go, but there's no urge to look for more expensive options.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:29 PM
cmac cmac is offline
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For $150, The Fishman Platinum Stage would improve your preamp situation immensely. It's kind of a hidden gem among preamps.
Having said that the K&K pure XLR is my current preamp, the Platinum Stage looks like a seriously nice piece of kit. :-)

I find myself tempted...
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