Why Can't We Get Some New Good Quality Brazilian Rosewood?

[Gee Man]

CITES > thread.

[Alan Carruth]

Steve DeRosa wrote:
"Waiting...waiting...waiting..."

For what?

In general, if what I've read is true, reducing the area of an ecosystem by 90% cuts the number of species in half. More than half of whatever was there to begin with in the Brazilian coastal rain forest is now gone beyond recovery. This is a heavily settled part of the country, so it's actually likely to be more than that.

There are a number of domestic woods that have mechanical and acoustic properties that are very similar to those of BRW, and make great sounding guitars. Osage orange is practically a drop-in replacement for BRW, and black locust, which has density and hardness that are more like Indian rosewood, usually has the lower damping that is characteristic of BRW, so it's 'improved' IRW. Both are practically weeds where they grow, finding use mostly as fence posts these days, although both are traditional woods for archery bows. Osage fence posts are said to out last the holes...

In the search for local substitutes the hardest one to find is ebony. The North American member of the family, persimmon, would be very good if it were more consistently black instead of white. As it is, it can be surface stained, and some work has been done with dying it black all the way through, but it's expensive to do, and the resulting fingerboards cost as much as Indian ebony. Soft shell almond is hard and dense, but it's a medium brown color, and might be too close grained to dye. It's also an introduced species, of course.

Otherwise, we're blessed. We have some of the best top woods in the world, which are still abundant enough that we could sustainably harvest them for the foreseeable future, particularly if folks could get used to three- and four-piece tops. The sound, after all, is in the top. Cherry is a great fill in for Caribbean 'true' mahogany, as the Philadelphia cabinet makers realized 200 years ago and more. Walnut and maple are fine woods too, and oak is a far better wood for B&S than many people seem to think.

Most of the makers I know would be more than happy to work with 'local' woods except for one thing; they're hard to sell. I've had people stand and look at an oak guitar at a show for a long time, and simply refuse to even try it. Are they afraid they'll like it? If we could get buyers to stop worshiping at the alter of tropical woods for a little while we might be able to turn things around to some extent.

As it is, I remember when Madagascar rosewood was touted as the 'ecological alternative' to BRW. Now the island is a disaster area, and much of it's unique ecosystem has been destroyed. We in the guitar world didn't do that all by our little selves of course, but we didn't help either.

Time to stop waiting and do something.

[tadol]

Not having good brazillian rw has made builders put more effort into trying out other materials, many of which have proven to make some extremely good guitars. Many braz rw guitars I’ve played didn’t sound near as good as one would expect for the price thats being asked for them - honestly, not even close. And I’ve played some maple, walnut, and even oak guitars, that were really quite amazing - and extremely sustainable, and material-wise, incredibly affordable.

But their is a lot of demand for braz rw simply because it is so rare and expensive. Its not uncommon for scarcity to cause an increase in demand, even if there is no other reason -

[archerscreek]

Is the demand for newly built BRW guitars as high as commonly suggested? How quickly do new guitars with BRW sell? My local Bourgeois dealer has had a Bourgeois dread with BRW back and sides sitting unsold for years.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by archerscreek

Is the demand for newly built BRW guitars as high as commonly suggested? How quickly do new guitars with BRW sell? My local Bourgeois dealer has had a Bourgeois dread with BRW back and sides sitting unsold for years.

Go to one of the ultra high end guitar website (eg - Dream Guitars) and start counting. My guess is that the majority are BRW, the rest scattered among other fine woods.

[Martz911]

In general, if what I've read is true, reducing the area of an ecosystem by 90% cuts the number of species in half. More than half of whatever was there to begin with in the Brazilian coastal rain forest is now gone beyond recovery. This is a heavily settled part of the country, so it's actually likely to be more than that.

There are a number of domestic woods that have mechanical and acoustic properties that are very similar to those of BRW, and make great sounding guitars. Osage orange is practically a drop-in replacement for BRW, and black locust, which has density and hardness that are more like Indian rosewood, usually has the lower damping that is characteristic of BRW, so it's 'improved' IRW. Both are practically weeds where they grow, finding use mostly as fence posts these days, although both are traditional woods for archery bows. Osage fence posts are said to out last the holes...

In the search for local substitutes the hardest one to find is ebony. The North American member of the family, persimmon, would be very good if it were more consistently black instead of white. As it is, it can be surface stained, and some work has been done with dying it black all the way through, but it's expensive to do, and the resulting fingerboards cost as much as Indian ebony. Soft shell almond is hard and dense, but it's a medium brown color, and might be too close grained to dye. It's also an introduced species, of course.

Otherwise, we're blessed. We have some of the best top woods in the world, which are still abundant enough that we could sustainably harvest them for the foreseeable future, particularly if folks could get used to three- and four-piece tops. The sound, after all, is in the top. Cherry is a great fill in for Caribbean 'true' mahogany, as the Philadelphia cabinet makers realized 200 years ago and more. Walnut and maple are fine woods too, and oak is a far better wood for B&S than many people seem to think.

Most of the makers I know would be more than happy to work with 'local' woods except for one thing; they're hard to sell. I've had people stand and look at an oak guitar at a show for a long time, and simply refuse to even try it. Are they afraid they'll like it? If we could get buyers to stop worshiping at the alter of tropical woods for a little while we might be able to turn things around to some extent.

As it is, I remember when Madagascar rosewood was touted as the 'ecological alternative' to BRW. Now the island is a disaster area, and much of it's unique ecosystem has been destroyed. We in the guitar world didn't do that all by our little selves of course, but we didn't help either.

Time to stop waiting and do something.

Alan - thanks so much for contributing to this Forum on a frequent basis. Your knowledge and experience are much appreciated! (And, of course, now I want to find an Osage Orange guitar. )

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Steve DeRosa wrote:
"Waiting...waiting...waiting..."

For what?

Hang in there - my Orville Redenbacher's about to pop and there's plenty of Bitburger in the fridge...

[J Patrick]

...wow...you could apply the same question and logic to hawksbill tortoise and African elephant ivory....both commodities that were once plentiful and used for musical instruments....not anymore for the same reason that you can’t get new good quality Brazilian Rosewood anymore....

[Audie]

Let's not forget the best tree for harvest is 70 to 100 years old, minimum. Hence the reason 7% is really zero. The trees grow extremely slow, as does their girth. I do not think the trees will recover in the next several life times, if ever.

[Ovation1]

Originally Posted by mmasters

I guess you have a valid point though I would say the guitar industry is better than those other industries.

..

No it isn’t. The guitar industry has been told in 1992 to stop using Brazilian rosewood, because it’s going on Cites, going extinct, etc. And they started buying more and more, turning up the hype machine “it’s the best tonewood!”

[jdrnd]

The solution will be animal based wood. Sort of the opposite of the impossible burger. Brazilian Rosewood will be artificially made using animal meat. The product will sound better than Brazilian wood, but not look as nice.
Than the problem goes away. Guitarists will be craving instruments made from animal flesh. Chicken meat would be the best source for the wood. They are not endangered, there are none of the religious issues that one sees with cows and pigs, and there light and dark meat means that there would be a lot of unique products.
Of course I realize the that Vegan guitarists would be opposed to this idea. I can see vegans boycotting performers who use instruments made from animals. It is sure going to be interesting in the next 50 years as animal based guitars enter the market.

[Jim W]

I seem to remember that in 2003 when Gibson was using it for the fingerboards of Les Paul model guitars there was some kind of managed program.

Some organization was allowed to take stumps and damaged trees, but there was supposed to be in turn a replanting and management of the new plantings, all paid for by the sales of the wood.

Gibson stopped using it in a big hurry though.

The raid on Gibson was long after this.

[drive-south]

I spoke to a builder that claimed to have a large stash of BRW that he couldn't use because he didn't have paperwork proving it was harvested years ago pre ban. It wouldn't surprise me if he was only one of many in the same boat.

[jpricewood]

As a professor of ecology and conservation, it warms my heart to read all of the pro-environment comments on this thread.

[sixfour]

Has April 1st really come round that quickly?

This is a wind-up right?