Dazzo Question From A Newbie

[Cuki79]

Please post a demo sample!!!

Cheers,
Cuki

[Gordon Currie]

Welcome to the Dazzo owner's club! Enjoy one of the best SBTs available.

[Br1ck]

That is pretty much what Dazzos do. They work. Why anyone would want to degrade their performance by using tape, I just don't know. I have never had a thought to remove them.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

That is pretty much what Dazzos do. They work. Why anyone would want to degrade their performance by using tape, I just don't know. I have never had a thought to remove them.

But did you install them yourself or Teddy did it for you?

[guitarman68]

Hey Sprucetop,

Congrats and welcome to the club.
Great and detailed description !

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

That is pretty much what Dazzos do. They work. Why anyone would want to degrade their performance by using tape, I just don't know. I have never had a thought to remove them.

+1! Despite being warned of dire consequences, this is why when I install my sitting on the shelf Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom system in a guitar, I will use the Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy Gel that I used in my Dazzo installation. I shall willingly waste the two Amulet transducers should they not work well with the epoxy and I damage them with removal. Should this be my result, I'm fairly sure that Gary Hull would sell me two more Amulets to go with the Phantom preamp to make the system whole again. The epoxy, IMHO, works similarly to superglue in enabling a thin intimate bond between transducer and bridge plate. The Trance "permanent" tape is .009" inches thick. With a thin-film epoxy installation, I'm estimating that the film is less than half that thickness.

[SpruceTop]

To channel one of my favorite blues artists, "Lawd, 'Av Moicy!" I've put my Larrivee D-40M into dropped-D and turned up the Synapse and I'm pounding the living spit outta the guitar doing a rendition of "It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" and I'm afraid it's going to grenade and wipe out me and my house! The Larrivee D-40M and Dazzo #70 system is a marriage made in heaven!

[PANDAPANDELO]

I'm REALLY happy to see other happy Dazzo customers around here. And if you liked the tone, leave it that way. My installation were a little too close from the bridge pins on the bass side, and I tried to install it better. I did a waaaay better installation, but I have damaged the pickup in the removal process. Stupid me. Sad, but true.

I will wait for the covid allow my financial life a little better, and I'll got myself another set of #60s for my Martin! For now, I'll be back to my metalic sounding M80. [emoji17]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

SKIP TO AMPLIFIED TONE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ MY INSTALLATION PROCEDURE

Eight years ago, after taking a Schatten HFN Artist Two Plus 2 (wooden base) out of my Larrivee D-04 ("Tree Model") and installing a Trance Amulet M-VT in its place, and firing up the system, my first thought was WOW! I just fired up my Larrivee D-40M Legacy dreadnought with its freshly-installed Dazzo #70 passive system and my first thought once again is WOW!

Some Background: As mentioned in my comment a few steps back in this thread, my intention was to do the initial epoxyless hunt for the best Dazzo transducer location by plucking the 6th string while moving the bass Dazzo around to hear the best tonal location to install it permanently. Well, I couldn't hear much through my amp but knew the transducer was working as I could get an amplified tapping sound from the amp when lightly hitting the Dazzo with my fingertip. If you're going to do this method first, and later after applying the epoxy, do route the Dazzo output into a preamp and then into an amp to make sure you'll get enough volume to hear the tone.

Long story short, per Teddy's instructions, I applied a light film of Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy Gel with my fingertip to the bridge plate location for the bass Dazzo as shown in Teddy's installation video and then applied another light film of epoxy to the bottom of the Dazzo and stuck it to the bridge plate. I held it there with light pressure while sliding it slightly back and forth to ensure both light films of the mixed epoxy on both surfaces were "integrated" and were starting to set up to hold the Dazzo to the bridge plate without being held there. Next, I adjusted the Dazzo location so the lead-wire point and lead wire of the triangular Dazzo shape were pointed between the bridge pin holes and just slightly forward of them. I repeated the procedure for the treble-side Dazzo but placed it just a bit farther ahead (toward the soundhole) of the bass one to account for the slight angle of the bridge saddle. I made sure the epoxy was set up enough to keep both Dazzos where I put them, and then restrung the Larrivee with new strings and let it sit overnight to completely cure the epoxy. This is likely not necessary as a couple of hours or less of epoxy set up time would likely be all that's necessary before handling and playing the guitar.

Being that the Dazzo #70 system I installed is passive, I plugged my Larrivee into an LR Baggs Session DI Preamp (10 MegaOhm input impedance) with its Saturate and Compression effects and Notch Filter OFF. The output of this preamp was fed into my LR Baggs Synapse Personal PA (also 10 MegaOhm input impedance should I want to plug the Dazzo system directly into it) with all EQ set FLAT. I adjusted the gain levels of the Session preamp and Synapse to flash "Red" only on the loudest flatpicked strumming and listened to the results.

AMPLIFIED TONE Well-balanced, full, and resonant across the tonal spectrum with no "hotter than the others" strings. The tone sounds very natural with no ice-pickiness or hollow bassiness. Given my kind of shortcut on installation procedures, I'm very pleased with the Dazzo #70 system's tone and will not try to improve (if even possible) on what I've got by relocating the Dazzos.

[loco gringo]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Why anyone would want to degrade their performance by using tape, I just don't know.

I don't see anything about someone wanting to degrade their performance by using tape. I see a discussion that was started about the possibility of using tape. I see where Dazzoman says that tape degrades the performance. The discussion was started to ask about the possibility of using tape without degrading their performance.

The question was based on a number of posts by Dazzoman and Sunn Audio in the last year or so where they were testing installation with tape and had made some statements about positive results. It seems like they were maybe not hot, but maybe at least warm, on it for a while.

[sunnaudio]

Originally Posted by loco gringo

I don't see anything about someone wanting to degrade their performance by using tape. I see a discussion that was started about the possibility of using tape. I see where Dazzoman says that tape degrades the performance. The discussion was started to ask about the possibility of using tape without degrading their performance.

The question was based on a number of posts by Dazzoman and Sunn Audio in the last year or so where they were testing installation with tape and had made some statements about positive results. It seems like they were maybe not hot, but maybe at least warm, on it for a while.

Hi LocoGringo, good timing for this thread as we are in the middle of installing pickups in my RPF-1.
To summarize, we tried some tape with Dazzo 60’s. The only tape that worked ok at best was some 3M “03615”. I posted a short clip on another thread but I’ll repost here:

Dazzo 60’s mounted with 3M tape though MS-2 and 15% mic in stereo

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zsg...w?usp=drivesdk

This is not optimal and we will post a new clip with 40’s and silicon next.
I would have used more EQ on this if it was a real project and used some plugins in a daw etc... but this is just MS-2 straight to a Behringer interface.
We have tried a couple silicons that are working decently. What we discovered for the Dazzos is, the harder the glue, more bass response and the softer the glue, the more treble comes through.
We need to find a tape that perhaps has a firm and stiffer silicon type character. There are so many types of tape, it’s very hard to pinpoint what that would be. Any experienced adhesive or silicon users welcome to experiment in this and give feedback.

Marc

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by sunnaudio

What we discovered for the Dazzos is, the harder the glue, more bass response and the softer the glue, the more treble comes through.

Interesting... That would explain the emphasis on clamping on the Trance Audio Amulet install...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Interesting... That would explain the emphasis on clamping on the Trance Audio Amulet install...

Gary says the pressure makes the tape chemically bond. In practice, I haven't found it to matter all that much. One installer I know says they simply hold the Trance pickups in place a few minutes by hand and they're done. They say they hear no difference from the extended clamping time. If you're doing it yourself, seems better safe than sorry. I've tried "short time" clamping and it seemed perfectly fine, but I'm not in a rush, so I just clamp overnight to be sure. What I've seen is that a big benefit of the clamping is the dialing in of the sound as you adjust the location of the clamp - not all that different from Teddy's approach of moving the pickup around and listening while the glue is still wet to find the optimal point. The Trance instructions don't seem to call this out very well (if at all) - Gary described it to me when I was having issues with one guitar.

By the way, I've also had Trance's glued in - I think the tape sounds better. Every pickup (and guitar) is different. I recall when the B-Band first came out, and Baggs had a relatively thin double-sticky tape, there was a local shop who did tons of installs, and settled on much thicker 3M double-sticky tape for that pickup. The weaker/looser, whatever bond supposedly made the pickup sound better. I think I might even have some examples of both types of tape on my pickup page. Never cared for that pickup regardless, but the point is that an install method that works for one (hard, tight bond) may not be ideal for another.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Gary says the pressure makes the tape chemically bond. In practice, I haven't found it to matter all that much. One installer I know says they simply hold the Trance pickups in place a few minutes by hand and they're done. They say they hear no difference from the extended clamping time. If you're doing it yourself, seems better safe than sorry. I've tried "short time" clamping and it seemed perfectly fine, but I'm not in a rush, so I just clamp overnight to be sure. What I've seen is that a big benefit of the clamping is the dialing in of the sound as you adjust the location of the clamp - not all that different from Teddy's approach of moving the pickup around and listening while the glue is still wet to find the optimal point. The Trance instructions don't seem to call this out very well (if at all) - Gary described it to me when I was having issues with one guitar.

Hi Doug,

Several years ago, my first Trance installations were done by eyeballing through the bridge pin holes, and with the aid of a mirror on the back of the guitar, locating the positioning of the Amulets. I'd press the Amulets to the bridge plate and push on them for about 5 minutes. My later installations were done by using a C-clamp with a bit of pressure on the whole Amulet for about 12-hours. I found little if any change in the amplified tonal results of these installation procedures. I haven't used the localized pressure method of using the turnbuckle clamp that Gary Hull recommends. I'm not even sure this method was in the instructions for my first Trance system bought about 8-years ago. Being that the "permanent adhesive" remains pliable, even after years of the Amulets being installed, I'm not convinced that there is any chemical change in the adhesive by clamping it under localized turnbuckle pressure or with pressure on the whole Amulet using a C-clamp. I recall you've mentioned that you've used the recommended turnbuckle localized clamping method when installing your Trance system(s).

My Question: Using the turnbuckle localized clamping method, can you really hear a difference in tonal variation when using this method to find the best area to clamp on the Amulet?

Thanks!

Ken

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Hi Doug,

Several years ago, my first Trance installations were done by eyeballing through the bridge pin holes, and with the aid of a mirror on the back of the guitar, locating the positioning of the Amulets. I'd press the Amulets to the bridge plate and push on them for about 5 minutes. My later installations were done by using a C-clamp with a bit of pressure on the whole Amulet for about 12-hours. I found little if any change in the amplified tonal results of these installation procedures. I haven't used the localized pressure method of using the turnbuckle clamp that Gary Hull recommends. I'm not even sure this method was in the instructions for my first Trance system bought about 8-years ago. Being that the "permanent adhesive" remains rather soft, even after years of the Amulets being installed, I'm not convinced that there is any chemical change in the adhesive by clamping it under the localized turnbuckle pressure or pressure on the whole Amulet. I recall you've mentioned that you've used the rcommended turnbuckle localized clamping method when installing your Trance system(s).

My Question: Using the turnbuckle localized clamping method, can you really hear a difference in tonal variation when using this method to find the best area to clamp the Amulet?

Thanks!

Ken

Hate to be the one that asks this but how would you compare the Dazzo and Trance?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Hate to be the one that asks this but how would you compare the Dazzo and Trance?

Hi Aaron,

Being that I currently don't have a Trance system installed in any guitar, but will likely do so next week, it's difficult to remember how the Trance sounded in my 2014 Martin HD-28 (sold over a year ago with the Trance M-VT system in it). I'll likely install the Trance M-VT Phantom system in my Larrivee C-03 Tommy Emmanuel Custom.

Given the tone of the Dazzo #70 system in the Larrivee D-40M, I'm sold on Dazzo systems. My installation of the Amulets for the Trance M-VT system will likely be done--against warnings not to do so--with the Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy Gel that was used in the Dazzo installation. As good as all my Trance installations have sounded, I'm convinced the Loctite 6-Minute Epoxy Gel will improve my tonal results over the recommended Trance "permanent tape."

I can, however, compare the previously recorded track of my 2014 Martin HD-28 Trance M-VT (battery system) with a new recording of the Dazzo system in my 2019 Larrivee D-40M that I'll try to make today or tomorrow.

More to come ...