What is your approach to commissioning a guitar?

[justonwo]

I've thought about the last 11 years doing this guitar commissioning thing with builders and my approach has changed pretty dramatically. I'm curious how others approach "custom" guitars.

I put custom in quotes because I don't really think of commissioned guitars as "custom" guitars anymore in the sense that they are being voiced in a specific way that is custom to my specs/wants/needs. On my first couple of commissions, I sent the builders a 2 page description of the sound I was after. Ha ha. What I ended up getting were some great guitars that sounded . . . pretty much like other work from those builders.

Over the years, I've become mostly hands-off in terms of how the guitar is voiced. What is most important for me is that I hear a couple examples of a builder's work before I commission. Then I'll spec woods, general aesthetics, and dimensions for the nut and saddle. I worry that if I send too much detail about what I want that the builder will be boxed into something they don't want to do or are afraid they can't do. When the builder is excited about creative control and allowed to do their thing, I think that's what produces the best result.

What I've found is that most builders find "their" sound and then stay within a pretty narrow wheelhouse. You can tweak the basic sound with different wood choices and variations on how the guitar is voiced, but in the end they all have a common character . . . so I try to get comfortable with what a builder's core sound is before I consider commissioning. I am mostly wary of the notion of the builder that can build "whatever you want" in the sense that the voice is totally customizable.

There's also something of a learning curve in commissioning guitars in terms of what to expect and how the process plays out. It's been fun, and I've made a lot of friends along the way.

[Richard Mott]

I haven’t commissioned so many guitars, but I completely agree with the evolution of your approach. I don’t think micromanaging a build is the path to happiness. Besides a small handful of basic specs like nut width, body size and wood, time is better spent finding the builder whose past work you love and trusting the process from there. In particular, compiling a list of words to describe tone feels especially doubtful. Currently in discussions with a view to a guitar next year, and the builder offered “as much or as little involvement in the process as you’d like.” At one point, I’d have jumped at the former, now after 15-20 years of experience, I just smiled and thought “the latter.”

[Guitars44me]

I have commissioned 5 from John Kinnaird now... sheesh! The first one I got of his was not my build, but it knocked me out. And they keep getting better and better.

I am after Huge Sound, and super comfort, too. I keep asking John to build in things and he usual agrees. Occasionally he tells me why an idea is not a good one, and we move on.

Fortunately for me he likes to stretch his chops, and is NOT very interested in repeating anything, or in copying any other particular instruments.

Our build threads are here in the Custom Shop, if anyone cares to check out the goods.

Here is to VARIETY!

Cheers

Paul

[Mooh]

Usually a call or a visit and I let the builder take notes. I may or may not have some ideas written down but mostly I can trust my brain to remember, and any decent builder will know what to ask anyway. Lots of discussion at the outset, then I try to wait patiently. My experience is limited to Beneteau and House, though I've certainly talked guitars with lots of other builders.

[MThomson]

I'm going through my first (and I expect only) commission with Rory Dowling at Taran guitars who I chose after playing a couple of his guitars and having a good chat. I'm letting him lead the process as I think you have to trust them to guide you. With me, he's allowed my to play a few of his guitars and asked me to voice my preferences in order for him to be able to tailor his choices to suit. I'm certainly not going in with an "i want this wood" or any other fixed ideas. I think that's just likely to lead to disappointment.

[nootis]

For the commissions I've done (3), I first have to have fallen in love with some examples of the builder's work before considering a commission. Along with the sound, the fit, finish and playability is what lures me towards any particular builder. I have never expected to dictate how a guitar should sound especially when that proverbial box has already been checked. This is not to say that discussions weren't allowed, but when discussing sound, I would point characteristics to a guitar of the builder's that I had already played. For example, "I liked the attack and the base that came from that OM you made" or something along those lines. This helps narrow down wood choices and allows me to rely on the experiences of the luthier to achieve "my" preferences.

Once the wood choice is covered, for me, I enjoy assisting in the overall esthetics and specs, then onto personal esthetics and/or themes on how I'd like the guitar to look. While I am somewhat picky, I find it best to let things evolve for when the time comes. All of my experiences have been great, and for me, the trick of the luthier is to push what has worked for them yet make it feel like it was your idea to begin with.

[ChuckS]

I've commissioned 3 guitars, but none for quite some time (2006, 2009, and 2012).
The first commission was for a Bresnan. I basically wanted Dan's standard GS. The only things I specified were scale length, fretboard width, and string spacing at the nut and saddle. I selected the back/side wood set from choices Dan presented (various BRW sets), and Dan selected the species of spruce for the top based on conversations we had. All aesthetic choices were made by Dan.

My second and third commissions started by my desire for a guitar tailored for a particular style/range of music I wanted to play and for what I wanted to hear in that music. After I decided to pursue a commission I searched for the luthier. I tried to match what I was looking for to luthiers that typically delivered that type of guitar/tone. In both cases I had preferences for tonewoods, but I made sure the luthier was comfortable that my tonewood preferences were appropriate for what I wanted for tone and responsiveness. In both of these commissions I was pretty much hands off as far as aesthetic choices.

I tend to like guitars that are tailored to perform really well (my perception of really well) in certain areas versus a guitar to handle everything. I usually have 2 or 3 guitars at a time, so a goal is to try to make sure I have good coverage for the range of music I play.

[iim7V7IM7]

My first custom commissioned guitar dates back about 20-years ago (it was an archtop for my 40th birthday!) and I have commissioned many custom guitars at this point. I will keep my comments focused on commissioning steel string acoustic flattop guitars because that is the focus of AGF.

Like Juston opined, as I have gained more and more experience with the process of commissioning instruments or with working on repeat commissions with particular luthier after you are familiar with their methods, my current “approach” is quite different then it was two decades ago. There are basically four stages to commissioning a guitar: Selection, Planning, Execution and Ownership.

Selection:

• Deciding on the type of guitar I want
• Selecting a luthier for a project
• Understanding their business terms, project duration and projected delivery timing
• Understanding their pricing structure

Planning:

• Communicating about playing style/goals/preferences/dislikes
• Understanding preferred method/cadence of communication & key decision points
• Selecting player specs (i.e. scale length, nut width, string spacing)
• Selecting woods based on luthier’s recommendations
• Selecting ergonomic and aesthetic features together

Execution:

• Status check-ins, updates, input on contemporaneous decisions
• Discussing setup preferences
• Discussing case options
• Discussing shipping options/methods

Ownership:

• Insuring the instrument
• Providing feedback (short and long-term)

What has changed the most in my approach as you state it is the increased level of belief in the influence of the skill of the chef over the quality of the ingredients in the success of the meal. Not that ingredients don’t matter (they do!), but unless manipulated in the hands of a master chef the superlative meal is never realized.

I would also say that my understanding of my preferences has become attuned through commissioning many instruments. I also now better understand that they are not just providing a guitar for money, but are literally giving you a piece of themselves.

Having a professional background in product development, design and engineering I have always played an active role in selecting the aesthetic and ergonomic appointments of my guitars. Luthiers can react to this differently to this and I try to adjust the style of my interactions accordingly.

I also use these experiences as opportunities to learn about different aspects materials selection, construction and finishing. I have been fortunate to work with some the best who have been generous with their time communicating not just the “what” and “when” but most importantly, the “why”...

[Guitars44me]

What iimv7 said! Extremely good advice!!!

Man some folks around here are LITERATE.

Cheers

Paul

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Guitars44me

What iimv7 said! Extremely good advice!!!

Man some folks around here are LITERATE.

Cheers

Paul

Yes, he's wise and well-spoken. A renaissance man, for sure. Hi, Paul! Loved playing your Kinnaird at BIG.That guitar sounded yuge!

[The Bard Rocks]

I will generally do quite a bit of research before approaching a builder. Sometimes it's more than one, and a few talks will whittle it to one. Other times, I know what builder I want from the start. I often ask for references and spend time on the phone or email with them.

I am very detail-oriented and hands-on. They will know that at the start and if they are not OK with this they should tell me and we'll part ways as friends. That has never happened. I also make it clear to them that what I can affect the most is the appearance of the guitar. They take care of the structure, the tone, the playablity, the important stuff.... I do not try to second guess or micro-manage them on these things. But I do on appearance. And I ask them never to allow my fussing over appearance to cause them to do something they are not fully comfortable with. So far that hasn't happened either.

I have once or twice pushed them into uncharted waters and each time the builder felt they could handle it even though they may not have not done exactly that before. So far, that has worked out well.

We spend enough time in discussions so that they have a good feel what I am after. If I can visit in person, I like to do that. It allows me to see and play other instruments they have made and they can hear and see me play. Additionally, it furthers our rapport. Rapport is critical if we are going to be happy with the result. We need to be able to see and hear through each other's eyes and ears.

[FormerFoodie]

When I work with a luthier, the main piece of advice or direction I give them is "make the guitar as if the guitar was going to be for you". As others have commented, most luthiers have a certain tonal DNA and asking them to go outside that, may not be the best route. Additionally, most luthiers have forgotten more about guitar building than I have ever known, so I defer to them on almost all the details.

Really the only area where I am active in the decision making is with some of the cosmetic appointments. I request veto power on key decisions, but I largely defer to the wisdom of the builder.

It's funny, after commissioning two custom guitars, I decided to only buy used guitars going forward - or if the guitar is new, I would need to play it before I buy it. Then I commissioned another guitar and that experience has blown my mind. I'm actually considering another commission, but have been able to remain responsible - at least for the short term.

[bho]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

My first custom commissioned guitar dates back about 20-years ago (it was an archtop for my 40th birthday!) and I have commissioned many custom guitars at this point. I will keep my comments focused on commissioning steel string acoustic flattop guitars because that is the focus of AGF.

Like Juston opined, as I have gained more and more experience with the process of commissioning instruments or with working on repeat commissions with particular luthier after you are familiar with their methods, my current “approach” is quite different then it was two decades ago. There are basically four stages to commissioning a guitar: Selection, Planning, Execution and Ownership.

Selection:

• Deciding on the type of guitar I want
• Selecting a luthier for a project
• Understanding their business terms, project duration and projected delivery timing
• Understanding their pricing structure

Planning:

• Communicating about playing style/goals/preferences/dislikes
• Understanding preferred method/cadence of communication & key decision points
• Selecting player specs (i.e. scale length, nut width, string spacing)
• Selecting woods based on luthier’s recommendations
• Selecting ergonomic and aesthetic features together

Execution:

• Status check-ins, updates, input on contemporaneous decisions
• Discussing setup preferences
• Discussing case options
• Discussing shipping options/methods

Ownership:

• Insuring the instrument
• Providing feedback (short and long-term)

What has changed the most in my approach as you state it is the increased level of belief in the influence of the skill of the chef over the quality of the ingredients in the success of the meal. Not that ingredients don’t matter (they do!), but unless manipulated in the hands of a master chef the superlative meal is never realized.

I would also say that my understanding of my preferences has become attuned through commissioning many instruments. I also now better understand that they are not just providing a guitar for money, but are literally giving you a piece of themselves.

Having a professional background in product development, design and engineering I have always played an active role in selecting the aesthetic and ergonomic appointments of my guitars. Luthiers can react to this differently to this and I try to adjust the style of my interactions accordingly.

I also use these experiences as opportunities to learn about different aspects materials selection, construction and finishing. I have been fortunate to work with some the best who have been generous with their time communicating not just the “what” and “when” but most importantly, the “why”...

I agree with this approach.

Generally, once I have selected a luthier, it means I have already decided I am drawn to the tone they achieve and their aesthetic approach. I will likely indicate my playing style and tonal preferences (lighter touch/fingerstyle but not always, vintage Martin sound with growly bass and shimmering trebles) so the luthier can decide the body type and woods. After that, my primary inputs are:

Playability to suit my style:
- action as low as possible without fret buzz
- shape of neck (low modified oval-ish)
- nut spacing (between 1.75 and 2)

Tonewoods:
- depending on what tone I am going for (e.g. rosewood for shimmer, mahogany for quick decay, etc)
- depending on aesthetics of options presented to me (beautiful woods are always a draw for me)

Aesthetics:
- I may influence inlay choice, including no inlay
- I may influence tints/bursts
- I may inlfluence binding/backstrip

[Parlorman]

My last (and only) commissioned guitar was almost 40 years ago. I was hoping for the sort of vintage sound that I had in a 1929 Martin OM28 I owned at the time. The resulting guitar was a wonderful instrument but just didn't have that hard to describe vintage vibe.

I decided it was easier for me to buy instruments that had the sound I was looking for. That's worked out well for me and my GAS is in remission.

All that said, I've seen some of the wonderful instruments that @justonwo has had built and was sorely tempted by one he recently listed on the AGF.

[Alan Carruth]

Some years ago there was a discussion on a violin maker's list about scroll carving. Someone asked how to develop a 'style' in their scrolls. The reply was; carve some scrolls, and you'll have a style. You may not like it, but you'll have one.

Most makers build what they like, if they can. They tend to retain core elements of 'their' sound throughout their line. I started out making classical guitars and branched out from there. I made my first arch top for a friend, who traded it off to his guitar teacher. He said that it took him three months to figure out how to play it, and then realized that it worked like a classical, rather than a 'normal' arch top. Once he did, he was able to shape the sound to the point that he sold off nine other guitars because he didn't need them any more. The cure for GAS?

Of course, that guitar doesn't really sound like a classical guitar, but it does sound like one of 'my' guitars. No matter how much a maker expands their range of models or types they tend to retain the core of their sound. So the first rule, if sound is what you're buying, is to find a maker who makes that sort of sound, and then give them some directions as to the sort of box you want it wrapped in.

But don't get too restrictive. The chef might be more important than the ingredients, but only up to a point. You can't make an angel cake with corn meal. Every piece of wood offers possibilities and sets limits. A good luthier can realize the possibilities and approach the limits pretty well, but it's always easier to make mahogany sound like mahogany than rosewood or maple.

Keep in mind that there are no agreed on definitions for tone descriptors. Your luthier will do their best to steer the sound in the direction you want as they understand it, but my 'bright' might be your 'harsh', so if you said you wanted 'really bright' sound you may get something unexpected. Actual examples of the sound you like are better than descriptions.

Keep in mind as well that it's probably impossible to make two guitars that sound 'the same', even when they're made side by side from wood cut from the same logs. I've had some luck making 'tonal copies' of guitars a couple of times, but the copies have not been 'identical', simply 'close enough' to the originals to be useful. And they still sound like 'my' guitars.