Omitting the fifth

[sprucetophere]

I have a very basic theory question, are there conventions or guidelines (other than what sounds good or what lends itself to an easier fingering) in determining when one can omit the fifth from a chord with four or more notes?

I’m wondering the same thing about omitting the root or omitting the third in different types of chords. For example, with a five tone chord why is it often acceptable to omit the root or the fifth? And with a six tone chord why is it often acceptable to omit both the Root and the fifth? Or why is the third often omitted in an 11th chord?

Again, I know at least one obvious answer (or THE?) obvious answer is it’s dictated by what sounds good. But, I’m looking to understand it on a different, arguably less practical and more academic level.

Thanks

Robert

[MC5C]

I think the most realistic answer is that (except for piano players or orchestra arrangers) you play the notes that sound good and leave out notes that don't matter as much. In a jazz comping context (probably not your actual question) guitar players avoid the I and V because the bass player has those notes covered and bass and guitar play as a team. You often get the I note implied by the structure of the tune. You often need the III, most particularly in a minor chord. You often need the VII when playing an extended dominant chord (9, 11 or 13). You often leave out the III note when playing an 11 chord because they are only a half tone apart and you might not desire the stress of that dischordant sound. Also if you leave out the III entirely the chord tends to sound major, but if you want a minor sound you pretty much need the bIII. Personally I rarely play other than four or five note chords, and almost always have a I root in there on the bottom, it's just the way I think and the grips I learned. But there is a dominant sounding chord I use a lot that I play with 4 notes that goes 7, 3, 13,9 low to high - F 9-13 would be played Eb - 4th string first fret, A - 3rd string second fret, D - 2nd string third fret, G - 1st string third fret. It's a real handy chord sometimes, doesn't have a root or a fifth.

Forgot: Sometimes chord tones are also melody tones. If you are playing chord/melody solo, you may need the melody note as a leading tone in your line. If you are playing accompaniment you sometimes want to lay off or not play the melody note in your chord just in case the soloist/singer decides to get funky on that note, and what you play makes her sound bad. Other times a funky chord tone is very definitive to the flow of the tune. I have one tune that uses b9 chords in the B section to completely define the harmony, if you left them out you'd lose the tune.

[Italuke]

In traditional ("classical") music theory, you can ALWAYS omit the fifth. You'll find it done all over the place in classical pieces.

Acoustically, it still is heard because it's the second overtone above any fundamental. It's very prominent even if not being played.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by MC5C

In a jazz comping context (probably not your actual question) guitar players avoid the I and V because the bass player has those notes covered and bass and guitar play as a team.

Don't doubt that's true but partly the reason I don't like a lot of jazz. Too much sacrificing a purer melody line.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by sprucetophere

IÂ’m wondering the same thing about omitting the root or omitting the third in different types of chords. For example, with a five tone chord why is it often acceptable to omit the root or the fifth? And with a six tone chord why is it often acceptable to omit both the Root and the fifth? Or why is the third often omitted in an 11th chord?

The 5th often adds very little because it's the 2nd overtone (harmonic) of the root. When you play a string, like say your 5th string A, you hear the root tone, the 1st overtone (A) an octave higher, and the 2nd overtone, which would be an E - the 5th. So the 5th is already in there! Adding an explicit 5th just reinforces the overtone that's already there. I guess because of this, it's a pretty vanilla sound - it doesn't really contribute much new information, compared to say the 3rd, which defines whether the chord sounds major or minor.

The root can sometimes be omitted because it's implied - listeners may implicitly "hear" the tonality. Try this: play a blues progression where the I chord (A7) is played xx56xx, IV chord (D7) is xx45xx and the V chord (E7) is xx67xx. You should easily be able to hear the harmony you expect to hear in the blues. And as noted by others, you may be playing with others, bass, keyboards, etc, and those instruments may be playing the root. Playing simpler chords (3rds and 7ths only in this example) helps you stay out of the other's way.

An 11th chord could also be considered a suspended 4th (an 11th is the same note as the 4th, just up an octave). In a sus4 chord, you're replacing the 3rd by the 4th, usually resolving to the 3rd next. Personally, I'd call a chord an 11th if it did also have a 3rd. A full 11th chord would have root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, but it'd be hard to play all those on the guitar, and in practice people leave some notes out - what matters is the notes that define the color. If you played root-4th-5th, replacing the 3rd with the 4th, I'd call that a sus4 chord. But naming conventions aren't cast in stone, and different people, especially in different genres may follow slightly different conventions for these sorts of cases. (And it's all just naming - a rose by any color, and all that) How it sounds is what matters most.

[sprucetophere]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The 5th often adds very little because it's the 2nd overtone (harmonic) of the root. When you play a string, like say your 5th string A, you hear the root tone, the 1st overtone (A) an octave higher, and the 2nd overtone, which would be an E - the 5th. So the 5th is already in there! Adding an explicit 5th just reinforces the overtone that's already there. I guess because of this, it's a pretty vanilla sound - it doesn't really contribute much new information, compared to say the 3rd, which defines whether the chord sounds major or minor.

The root can sometimes be omitted because it's implied - listeners may implicitly "hear" the tonality. Try this: play a blues progression where the I chord (A7) is played xx56xx, IV chord (D7) is xx45xx and the V chord (E7) is xx67xx. You should easily be able to hear the harmony you expect to hear in the blues. And as noted by others, you may be playing with others, bass, keyboards, etc, and those instruments may be playing the root. Playing simpler chords (3rds and 7ths only in this example) helps you stay out of the other's way.

An 11th chord could also be considered a suspended 4th (an 11th is the same note as the 4th, just up an octave). In a sus4 chord, you're replacing the 3rd by the 4th, usually resolving to the 3rd next. Personally, I'd call a chord an 11th if it did also have a 3rd. A full 11th chord would have root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, but it'd be hard to play all those on the guitar, and in practice people leave some notes out - what matters is the notes that define the color. If you played root-4th-5th, replacing the 3rd with the 4th, I'd call that a sus4 chord. But naming conventions aren't cast in stone, and different people, especially in different genres may follow slightly different
conventions for these sorts of cases. (And it's all just naming - a rose by any color, and all that) How it sounds is what matters most.

Thanks again Doug this is great stuff!

I thought this was fairly straightforward and that I would just go about learning all of the triads. Now I see it’s not quite that simple and there’s a wrench thrown in this plan because sometimes I want to omit the fifth when playing and learning a triad. If I’m following, the million dollar question is which triads do I want to do that with and turn the four tone chord into a triad with an omitted Fifth.

If Fingerstyle playing is one’s goal, i’m wondering if when first learning triads and their inversions, do I need to worry about learning triad variations with omitted tones?

For example, if I’m playing an A6 triad with the A on the 5th fret of the high E string, I’ve omitted the 5th (the E). Obviously omitting the E makes it a triad rather than a 4 tone chord. This presents a challenge for someone like me because I don’t know which four tone chords I should convert into triads when attempting to learn the “most important triads” for finger style guitar.

Maybe what I should ask is whether or not you could refer me to a list of the most important triads to learn when first learning finger style guitar?

Please set me straight if I’m missing the mark entirely here.

Thanks!

Robert

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by sprucetophere

[
I thought this was fairly straightforward and that I would just go about learning all of the triads. Now I see it’s not quite that simple and there’s a wrench thrown in this plan because sometimes I want to omit the fifth when playing and learning a triad. If I’m following, the million dollar question is which triads do I want to do that with and turn the four tone chord into a triad with an omitted Fifth.

If Fingerstyle playing is one’s goal, i’m wondering if when first learning triads and their inversions, do I need to worry about learning triad variations with omitted tones?

Sounds like your question is related to our other discussion about using triads to find your way around the fretboard. Keep in mind that the idea there was to use the triads as a way to *visualize* where you are. For that, what I think about is just the 1,3,5 in different inversions, usually just on strings 1,2,3 2,3,4 and 3,4,5. But I'm not necessarily playing them - I'm just thinking of them as guideposts, almost like fret markers. So I don't need to take them away or anything. The mental image I have tells me where the chord tones of the basic triad is at various points on the fretboard. If I don't want to play the 5th (as melody or harmony), then I don't. if I want to find the 4th, well, I know that's one fret above the 3rd. The 6th is 2 steps above the 5th. The major 7th is one fret below the root, etc.

So I never worry about "omitting" one note, anymore than I would omit certain fret markers. Knowing where these basic chord tones are is just a guide, and from there, I can easily find any other notes I need, from an 11th to a #9 or b5. Especially handy in an alternate tuning where I don't know the notes nearly as well (or at all) as I know standard.

[ceciltguitar]

Just an aside - an easy way remember how to “grab and go” an 11th or 13th triad:

- The major triad one step below the root consists of the 7th, 9th and 11th, for an 11th chord. (in the key of C - Bb, D, F is 7, 9, 11)

- The minor triad above the root consists of the 9th, 11th and 13th, for a 13th chord. (in the key of C - D, F, A is 9, 11, 13)

😉

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by sprucetophere

I thought this was fairly straightforward and that I would just go about learning all of the triads. Now I see it’s not quite that simple and there’s a wrench thrown in this plan because sometimes I want to omit the fifth when playing and learning a triad.

Strictly speaking, omitting a fifth from a triad makes little sense. Omitting tones only gets effective with 4+ note chords.
It sounds like you are either mixing unrelated concepts together, or looking for some kind of shortcut. This is NOT an area you want to shortcut!

Learning the notes of common chords (triads are the minimum chord) and how they are constructed is fundamental knowledge.

Omitting notes is a higher-level performance and compositional option.

Originally Posted by sprucetophere

If Fingerstyle playing is one’s goal, i’m wondering if when first learning triads and their inversions, do I need to worry about learning triad variations with omitted tones?

If I could give you one piece of advice, it is to NOT attempt to shortcut this.

It's similar to someone going through medical school, and finding a 'hack' so they can dispense with say, a semester on medical coding standards. Sure you CAN do it, but does it make you a good doctor?

Originally Posted by sprucetophere

Please set me straight if I’m missing the mark entirely here.

A remark that has been attributed to Miles Davis has always guided me since the late sixties. He said something like "you need to learn everything you can about music, and then forget about that and just play."

Often I feel that many people today are motivated by the second half of the statement, and in today's environment the constant bombardment of ads and links promising 'one weird hack' that will save you years of effort sure make it hard to focus on the first part!

Nevertheless, if you want to be the best you are capable of being, it will be through grueling study and practice.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

Strictly speaking, omitting a fifth from a triad makes little sense. Omitting tones only gets effective with 4+ note chords.
It sounds like you are either mixing unrelated concepts together, or looking for some kind of shortcut. This is NOT an area you want to shortcut!

Agreed, in general, if you're omitting the 5th from a triad, then you don't have "chord", you have an interval of a 3rd. Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing 3rds, if that's the sound you're going for, 3rds are useful, as are other intervals. All depends on what you're playing. And of course there's theory and there's sounds that you like. Theory is just a way to explain the sounds, so if the sound you want doesn't include the 5th, that's fine, but might affect what you call it, to be perfectly correct. Folk, rock and jazz guitarists also sometimes tend to play fast and loose with what things are called, at least compared to "proper" classical theory.

I'm not real sure of the context sprucetophere is going from here, and I'm sensing some confusion.

[Robin, Wales]

I really don’t understand half of the replies so far (or even the question!) but perhaps this is a perspective so different that it’s helpful.

I play mountain dulcimer in a traditional style – I play the melody on one string and have two strings working as drones. The drones are usually tuned to the root and 5th of the scale of the key being played. I only have access to the diatonic scale for melody, and I can’t modulate. Usually, I can get away with murder playing tunes against drones, but for some tunes it’s problematic.

If I play “Danny Boy” it starts on the 7th of the scale, so I won’t bring the drones in until the tune hits the 3rd of the scale on “boy” because the clash between the 7th and the root just doesn’t work for this tune (but it is OK for others). The end of the phrase “the pipes are calling” finishes and holds the 6th note of the scale and I need to skip the 5th drone and just play the root drone at that point against the 6th or the clash just doesn’t work (but playing the 6th against the 5th drone is OK for other tunes). So, I wonder if it is the relationship between the chord and a particular melody note that may inform whether a chord note is dropped or not. Some melodies may have emphasis on “unusual” notes, which if played in passing are OK with a 5th but when emphasised sound better with the 5th dropped.

I think that it can sort of work in reverse too. I have heard the simple bluegrass gospel tune Angel Band played different ways. The original walks down to the V chord at the start of the chorus, but I have heard some bands walk up to the IV chord at that point. In each instance the main sung melody is very slightly changed to fit the chord structure or certain notes clash, but there are a couple of sung harmony part options that work just as well over either chord.

Anyway, I know my comments are not jazz or classical or informed by music theory, just simple observations, but perhaps they shed some light on why a 5th may be dropped from a chord.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

If I play “Danny Boy” it starts on the 7th of the scale, so I won’t bring the drones in until the tune hits the 3rd of the scale on “boy” because the clash between the 7th and the root just doesn’t work for this tune (but it is OK for others). The end of the phrase “the pipes are calling” finishes and holds the 6th note of the scale and I need to skip the 5th drone and just play the root drone at that point against the 6th or the clash just doesn’t work (but playing the 6th against the 5th drone is OK for other tunes). So, I wonder if it is the relationship between the chord and a particular melody note that may inform whether a chord note is dropped or not. Some melodies may have emphasis on “unusual” notes, which if played in passing are OK with a 5th but when emphasised sound better with the 5th dropped.
.

The reason that the first pick up phrase of Danny Boy sounds bad when played over the tonic note is twofold, one the 'Oh' (7th) is a semi tone away from the tonic, two notes a semi tone apart harmonise about as badly as it's possible to not harmonise, the second reason is that though it's not played on a strong beat as it's the second beat in a bar it is held for a whole beat so that's long enough for the clash to become noticeable, if the 'Oh' note was a passing tone which the melody skimmed over quickly on the way to resolve somewhere else the disharmony would not be noticed. Most musicians wanting to harmonise that opening phrase would choose notes from the 5 chord of the key resolving to the tonic chord on 'Boy' which is the 3rd to the tonic. So played in D the first 3 notes if they are to be harmonised would be played over notes from the A chord, C# which is the 7th to D is the 3rd to A and therefore harmonises very pleasantly with A chord. The first beat of the next bar and as such the strongest note in the bar is 'Boy' where the mini chord progression can resolve to the D chord as 'Boy' being F# is 3rd to D.

Not sure here why you don't find the 5 drone to be harmonising with the opening phrase, things become confusing with intervals because they change depending on where you start counting from, I think of A as being the 5th to D which it is if you start counting from D and go up, but if you start counting from A in the bass up to D then it pressumably should be called an interval of the 4th but I still think of it as a 5th sound. So I'm thinking that maybe the drone note I am calling a 5th you might call a 4th in the bass? So G note when in the key of D, that would explain why it doesn't work for you as a drone over the pick up phrase.
There must be a convention as to how intervals are refered to which clarifies this confusion?

[Robin, Wales]

In the case above, if I was in the key of D the open strings would be tuneg DAA with one open A being the melody string and D and A the drones. So the 6th of the scale is B at the first fret (the first fret on a dulcimer is a full tone above the nut). It would be that B note that noticeably clashes with the open A drone in this particular piece (Danny Boy). But in many other tunes that I play this clash of the B against the A drone is not evident. So I wonder if certain tunes set us up to hear the expected, and when that is unexpected it stands out. Whereas in other tunes the same "chord" of D, A, B is not significant to our ears.

And I was just suggesting that perhaps it is this miss-match with expectation which leads to the dropping of the 5th in the OPs question. Although his scenario is very different, it may have parallels?

[sprucetophere]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not real sure of the context sprucetophere is going from here, and I'm sensing some confusion.

I apologize for switching gears from the original question, in my mind it’s related. :-) I should probably have started a new thread called triads.

Doug, you’re right I was confused. The confusion involves forgetting that we’re discussing the use of triads as tools to help visualize the fretboard versus necessarily playing those triads. There are many finger style pros and teachers (like yourself) that emphasize/prioritize committing to memory playing shapes of the triad. And, my confused question about whether I should commit to memory triads that were created from four or 5 ton chords that omit the fifth.

I like your approach better in that it seems a more comprehensive/fundamental approach. It seems that this will allow me to learn to fish for more types of fish and make available to me more types of fishing gear.

A related question - once I have fully committed to memory all of the notes on the fretboard and the triads (and their inversions) on the top four or five strings, where do I go next?

If my goal is to both play as well as compose finger style versions of songs (instrumental finger style tunes as well as songs by Paul Simon et al) That is, would I benefit most from learning more harmony theory so that

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

In the case above, if I was in the key of D the open strings would be tuneg DAA with one open A being the melody string and D and A the drones. So the 6th of the scale is B at the first fret (the first fret on a dulcimer is a full tone above the nut). It would be that B note that noticeably clashes with the open A drone in this particular piece (Danny Boy). But in many other tunes that I play this clash of the B against the A drone is not evident. So I wonder if certain tunes set us up to hear the expected, and when that is unexpected it stands out. Whereas in other tunes the same "chord" of D, A, B is not significant to our ears.

And I was just suggesting that perhaps it is this miss-match with expectation which leads to the dropping of the 5th in the OPs question. Although his scenario is very different, it may have parallels?

mmm... I think as has allready been written, in the context of jazzy playing then the bass whether that be a guitar or trombone is allready supplying the tonic and 5th so in a band context it makes sense for treble instruments to focus on complementing the bass rather than repeating. I have never played in such a band but I can see how adopting this strategy would result in the listener hearing clearly distinct lines between bass and treble.

Playing B against A will allways produce a little tension and this is the basis for a suspended chord, I often use such a chord where the 3rd of the chord gets replaced by the 2nd, mostly I just do this with modal folk tunes where I am trying to keep the harmony sounding a bit ambiguous.
Danny Boy is not the sort of modal tune where I would do this and certainly I believe in previous centuries Irish folk music was considered to be the most musically sophisticated of European traditions, can't remember who but one classical composer described Londonderry Air as having the 'ideal' melody. Whereas to my ears a tune such as She Moved Through the Fair is a different proposition and would benefit from exploiting the harmonic ambiguity that results from replacing the 3rd of a chord with the 2nd , which is the sound produced when taking an A major chord and replacing the 3rd (C #) with the 2nd (B).
But certainly the tension in the sound of much 'New Age' music comes from abandoning the harmonies listeners have grown used to hearing and replacing with sus 2 or sus 4 chords to imperfectly harmonise a modal type melody which is perhaps closer to what you are thinking off?