New to Archtops. Any "gotta' have one" bits of gear to get ?

[JohnW63]

I just sent off some PayPal money to purchase a Guild X-175 Manhattan archtop.



It won't be here until Thursday. Long week.

As this is my first hollow body, and I would like to get some more cool jazzy sounds, as well as what ever else this guitar is good at. My only effects pedal is a Boss SD-1 distortion box.

My amp is a Carvin Vintage 16
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/VINTAGE16

I don't know how well this guitar stands up with some of the higher end Guilds or other hollow body guitars, but I hope it's going to be versatile and lots of fun to learn electric stuff on. Given my goals, what would be your recommendation for pedals or other gear ?

[Steve DeRosa]

Congrats - sweet-looking guitar...

In their original incarnation these instruments straddled the musical line between jazz and rockabilly, and if you own other electric guitars better suited to other genres I'd start by playing to the Guild's strengths. First off - and cheapest - I'd set it up with a classic '50s combination of flatwound 12's (13's if you can handle them) and the lowest action you can get without buzzing; although old-school hollowbodies like yours were primarily intended as electric instruments, they're capable of a rich, woody tone as I'm sure you're well aware - IME "classic" electrics (LP/SG. Strat/Tele, hollow/semi-hollow thinlines, jazzboxes) perform their best when their original design parameters (including the relatively heavy strings of their day) are closely observed. Since you claim to be looking for "cool jazzy sounds," this is the combination you're hearing on nearly every recorded example of electric guitar through the early/mid-60's - and I'd use this as my starting point...

If I read your post correctly you're not looking to go the fusion or psychobilly route, so you might want to shelve that fuzzbox in favor of cleaner sounds - think maximum headroom/minimum distortion here. Although there are a variety of ways to achieve it, if you're going to use a tube amp - the characteristic sound of '50s jazz guitar - you'll want to duplicate that vintage tonality as closely as possible; simply put, ditch "British" in favor of "American" - think Fender/Ampeg (and if you've never played a good vintage example of the latter, you should) rather than Marshall/Vox when assembling your rig. If you're going to stay with your Carvin Vintage 16, a set of high-headroom tubes and a warmer-sounding speaker will give you those classic tones - I'm using these in my Bugera V22:

http://www.thetubestore.com/Shop-by-...remium-Package
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...el=Swamp_Thang

Should you go this route, order the highest headroom power tubes available (I'm using #47's in my amp) and matched triodes on all your preamp tubes - while most guys say it doesn't really matter other than in the PI/ driver stage (V3 in your amp), I find it gives smoother, more consistent tone across the board. In addition, the Eminence speaker is extremely efficient (~102 dB vs. ~98 dB for your stock speaker), which translates to the sonic equivalent of "free watts" - your 16-watt amp essentially becomes a 40-watter, in terms of usable clean volume and headroom...

Similarly, if you'd rather keep your Carvin "rock ready" and go with a dedicated jazz amp, I'd recommend something with a 12" or 15" speaker. A decent mid-80's Peavey Bandit 65 1x12" solid-state combo can be had for $125-175, a Special 130 (twice the power and parametric EQ) for $150-200, and a 2x12 Renown or Special Chorus for $175-225 - lay off the pull-bright switch and Saturation (OD) and it should be easy to dial in a good jazz tone, with all the headroom (and raw volume - watch out for feedback) you'll ever need. Another good bet is a "pre-headbanger" Randall RG/RB solid-state combo from the 70's/early-80's; these were voiced to compete with the silverface Fenders (and comparably priced in their day), with higher power (120-300W) and little or no maintenance. Good news is that there's virtually no market interest so prices are extremely reasonable; I've seen clean examples routinely going in the $150-200 range - chump change for what essentially amounts to a transistor Twin, and far less than a Roland JC-120 (FYI, a good Randall will walk all over a Roland in terms of both tone and power)...

Good luck...

[JohnW63]

Wow. Thanks Steve!

I do have a G&L Legacy Tribute guitar that is basically a Strat, so I think that guitar will be more inclined for modern stuff.

I think my idea for the Guild is to find OTHER sounds that it can create that the G&L isn't suited to. Given they are both single coil pick-ups, I hope the difference is obvious , but it may not be right off.

[JohnW63]

Steve,

How can you tell the age of some of these Randall amps ? Lots of their amps for sale, and quite a few are RG or RB model numbers, but I think most are relatively new.

John

[Steve DeRosa]

The ones you're after for jazz guitar are the RG-120 and RB-120 two (independent) channel combos from the 70's/early-80's, before they became the darlings of the headbanger set (as they still are); arguably the first genuinely high-quality "mainstream" solid state rigs (Kustom and Acoustic being geared/voiced more for the hard-rock crowd), these amps could pump out an effortless 120W through the internal speaker - run your G&L through one and you'll loosen a filling or two - with 180W on tap through an additional cab. FYI Randall also produced RG-300 2x12" and 1x15" 300W combos in far smaller numbers, but IMO unless you're playing 20K-seat arenas every week and your bass player is running through an Ampeg SVT, they're really not practical for general use...

Getting back to your original question, these amps fall into two main groups in terms of distinguishing features:

First issue (ca. 1971-1978)
Shiny black tolex cabinet
Woven black grille cloth
Distinctive orange stripe below control panel, containing "Randall" logo in block script at left and model name in small raised box at right (300-Series had large logo in place of small box)
Slanted black control panel, with model designation at right in large silver capital letters on certain models (mostly RB bass amps)
Silver-skirted black control knobs with raised "R" logo, similar to those on '70s Fender Starcaster guitar and some Super Twin/Studio Bass amps
Two channels with +6dB and 0dB input in each (four inputs total)
Volume/Treble/Mid/Bass controls for each channel
Master Volume with Pull Gain Boost located between Channels 1 & 2
Channel 2 Treble control has Pull Boost
RG guitar amps have footswitchable reverb and tremolo in Channel 2, reverb control located next to Channel 2 Volume knob
RB bass combos are specifically voiced in each channel, no reverb/tremolo in Channel 2
Dual-polarity on/off switch on right front panel
Red pilot light
1/4" 600-ohm unbalanced line out on rear panel
Grounded convenience outlet on rear panel
Extension speaker out on rear panel
Available in 2x10", 4x10", 2x12", and 1x15" guitar combos, 1x15" and 2x15" bass combos, as well as head/cab combinations
Note: there are highly apocryphal stories of factory-issue 4x10"+piezo and 1x15"+2x10"+horn RB-120 bass combos from the late "orange-stripe" era, based on the 1x15" and 2x15" combo cabinets respectively; if they do in fact exist - even as a handful of test mules or prototypes (I've never seen one myself, nor met any highly reliable source who has) - they would be among the very first "modern" bass combo amps, predating similar rigs by over a decade

Second Issue (ca. 1979-1983)
Similar to first-issue except as follows:
Charcoal-gray stripe below control panel
Black plastic skirted knobs with raised "R" logo (some production used older silver-skirted design)
2x10" guitar combo, 2x15" bass combo, and 300-Series amps appear to have been discontinued with introduction of "gray-stripe" second series
Note: some 1984 and later amps are similar except for silver stripe below controls, switchable channels with individual gain/volume, no tremolo, and different voicing

Here's some photos that'll help you identify the models in question - FYI, gray-stripe versions are rarer (and classier-looking IMO) than orange-stripe models:
http://www.google.com/images?client=...g&ved=0CBQQsAQ

They really are good stuff - every bit as rugged and bulletproof as the Peaveys, but more refined in terms of both fit/finish and tone; I've had one of the last of the "gray-stripe" RB-120 1x15" bass combos for the last 30 years, and not only does it give me old-school B-15 style tone in the bass channel, it's a great no-frills jazz/country amp - and it's the only amp in my stable that I leave plugged-in and ready-to-go at all times. BTW, it seems they've been discovered - prices are on the rise since I saw a solidly-excellent orangeface 2x12" for $149 in GC at this time last year - so if this sounds like your cuppa tea you might want to start shopping ASAP...

Good luck...

[JohnW63]

So, is this one of the 2nd type?

http://www.musicgoroundaurora.com/p/...FZNffgodYgIAXQ

And where does a Commander 210 fit in the mix ?


This one is dirt cheap. Probably cost more to ship it cheap.

[Steve DeRosa]

Definitely one of the second-issue RG-120's - in fact, it's a near-double for my RB-120 bass amp except for the reverb/trem controls. Price is well in line with what I was telling you - cover's a little beat but pot shafts/ knobs aren't broken (if they were, good luck finding replacements for the latter) - and I wouldn't hesitate to check this one out...

The Commander 210 in the photo is a textbook example of the first-issue Randalls - if you reread my post I mentioned that the 2x10" was part of the original RG-120 lineup. These were aimed head-on at the silverface Vibrolux Reverb, but with more tonal flexibility (mid control, gain boost, master volume) and three times the power to boot; FWIW Music Man (another Fender offshoot, run by Leo himself - FYI Don Randall was an ex-Fender honcho) had a comparable hybrid (SS front end, 12AX7/6CA7 power stage) amp called the 210-HD/One-Thirty in their lineup from day one. The 210 RG's are great amps if you have a very dark-sounding guitar - they'll cut through the thickest mix like a machete - or you're doing rockabilly/roots/honky-tonk with a humbucker-equipped hollowbody. They're also an excellent foundation for a 180W full-range rig when paired with a 1x15" bottom (which Randall also produced - haven't seen one in 35 years. though), about the same size as a Marshall half-stack - I knew someone who had the Music Man version back in the day, and if you like it loud this one'll splinter your skull with treble and clean your colon with bass at the same time . Might be a good investment if it's cheap enough, and it'd probably work well for 70's/80's-style rhythm with that G&L...

[JohnW63]

The Commander is under 100 bucks by a good amount.

Given I don't jam or play with anyone, it's probably a LOT of over kill watts, but will it still sound good a low volumes ? Still produce nice clean tones ? I'm not saying that all I ever want out of this arch top, but that is my first goal , if I am to get a "jazz" capable amp.

Do I need to watch out for examples that people have swapped the speakers ? What should be in them, if I were to chat on the phone with sellers ?

[louparte]

Beautiful, beautiful guitar.

I think you need to buy a tremolo pedal for Surf, Rockabilly, twang,
unless your amp comes with tremolo. I'd want a compressor pedal too
unless you have a good unit already.

[JohnW63]

The guitar is practically new, from Hew Hartford. The guy I bought it from got it recently, on a whim, and didn't even have an amp to plug it into. So, it's been played, but not plugged in.

[JohnW63]

Oh, on the Amp question..I do have a Peavey Backstage Chorus. Worth plugging into ?

I talked to the store with the cheap Randall amp. " It's dirty, kinda' stinky, and has a missing foot. But, it all works. " . Given it will need to ship cross country, the shipping won't be insignificant. Too far gone to try and clean up and use ? I don't know if it's smokey environment sticky or moldy, or animal based smell.

[mr. beaumont]

Jazzy tones? Get a rosewood bridge and ditch that obnoxious tone killing Bigsby.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

...will it still sound good a low volumes? Still produce nice clean tones? I'm not saying that all I ever want out of this archtop, but that is my first goal if I am to get a "jazz" capable amp. Do I need to watch out for examples that people have swapped the speakers? What should be in them, if I were to chat on the phone with sellers?

...I talked to the store with the cheap Randall amp. "It's dirty, kinda' stinky, and has a missing foot. But, it all works." Given it will need to ship cross country, the shipping won't be insignificant. Too far gone to try and clean up and use? I don't know if it's smokey environment. sticky or moldy, or animal based smell.

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jazzy tones? Get a rosewood bridge and ditch that obnoxious tone killing Bigsby.

In reverse order:

If you're doing straight jazz and nothing but, I'd agree 100% - a rosewood bridge and non-trem tailpiece will warm up your tone big-time; you do say, however, that's not all you want out of this combination, and wisely so IMO - that guitar's capable of much more than just jazz - so you'll need to make a few compromises for the sake of stylistic versatility. That said, the one thing you don't want with a Bigsby (or any other trem tailpiece, for that matter) is a wooden bridge - even flatwound strings will hang up in the slots like they were coated with Velcro; at this point in time I'd say stay with what you've got, and as you become better acquainted with your instrument and its capabilities you can always make mods where/when/if necessary...

Based on the photo, I'm thinking that amp has been sitting in someone's attic/basement/garage for the last 30 years or so - it doesn't appear to have the grillecloth/Tolex rips and tears characteristic of most ex-road warriors - and that's the kind of "dirty-stinky" you're dealing with here; not to worry, there's a whole bunch of products available at your friendly local multi-mart/hardware/home supply store - cleaners, deodorants, rust/tarnish removers, etc. (even something that neutralizes "kitty aroma") - that'll take care of the situation in a hurry.;;

As far as the missing foot is concerned I've got your solution right here:

http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm...erFeet%2DLarge

Frankly, I would have suggested replacing the feet anyway, broken or not; the rubber gets hard after 40 years, and if you decide to go the "stack" route these are thick enough to accommodate a top-mounted handle without the risk of your amp moving (or worse)...

Since most people don't know how to read the numerical codes on speaker frames, asking may be of little or no value in this instance; TMK, most - if not all - of the RPO speakers were produced by Eminence. Although I'm making my evaluation on the strength of a single photo I'll go out on a limb here and say, based on what I've seen in terms of both catalog photos and hands-on playing experience, the speakers in your amp are in all likelihood original. That said, I wouldn't be concerned about replacement speakers in an amp of this type - you're not dealing with vintage alnico Jensens here - and although Eminence has always made fine-sounding speakers (FWIW I'm kinda partial) even they've made great strides since the mid-70's; in case you're not aware, a speaker swap can go a long way in helping you tailor your signature tone - a pair of Lil' Buddys will give you more warmth and smoothness, Ragin' Cajuns greater responsiveness and cutting power...

As far as sounding good at low volumes is concerned, well-engineered solid-state amps are generally fairly consistent tonally regardless of volume level, and in earlier designs such as the Randall rely upon first-stage front-end (preamp) gain and speaker-cone breakup to achieve distortion. Fortunately, this also works in reverse: I can plug my Godin CW II into the low-gain (0dB) input of my RB-120's guitar channel, dime the master volume, and nudge the channel (preamp) volume to where I'm just slightly above a loud acoustic guitar level (and still low enough that my wife can sleep in the next room) and getting a "modern" jazz/country clean tone (more "hi-fi" than a tube amp); bear in mind, however, that I'm also going through a 15" speaker rather than two ten-inchers - your results may well be different in terms of timbral balance (more prominent upper-mids, crisper treble). At this point the ball's in your court; if "it all works" and it's well under $100 as you say I'd buy it on that basis alone, if only as a project/backup amp - even if you have to pay $75-100 shipping, IMO you're still well ahead of the game vis-a-vis the cost of purchasing a new amp with comparable features/quality at your local GC...

[JohnW63]

Thanks Steve,

I'm going to call them back on Monday and see what shipping is. I have a 30 day return, so I should be safe. I'm OK working on electronics, so maybe I would call it a "project" amp, if it needs more effort than it seems.

Mr Beaumont,

Yeah. I was advised that the NON Bigsby version of this guitar would be warmer and probably better for Jazz, however, since this is my first Archtop, I really don't know where it will take me. Jazz ? Blues ? Vintage rock ? Brian Setzer stuff ? I don't know.I'm not much of an electric player, so it was a weird thing to be considering. But it was darn cool looking and I got it at a very good price with shipping, so... I just rolled the dice and hit the Pay button.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

...since this is my first Archtop, I really don't know where it will take me. Jazz? Blues? Vintage rock? Brian Setzer stuff?...

Now you're cookin' - that Randall is perfect for the last three, and since you're OK with electronics you might consider tearing it down to cab/chassis/speakers and really giving it a thorough cleaning inside and out; give the cabinet a swipe of Armor-All after you're done and it'll look like 1975...