finding the right 12-string (Goldilocks and the 3 Bears-this porridge was too cold)

[Benjo]

For all you fingerstyle 12-string players out there:

Long time fingerstyle player (https://soundcloud.com/benddavidson/sets/solo-guitar) and still looking for the right 12-string. I've owned a Guild, Taylor (both the 6 and 12-string LKSM models), and most recently, Breedlove Oregon Concert. All have missed the mark to varying degrees, with the Breedlove being the best of them.

Bought a Lowden Pierre Bensusan sig model 6-string last summer it was like a revelation. THIS is what a guitar can be. It is so much better than any of the previous guitars I've owned at every level of comparison.

I am seriously considering spending a lot of money again to get a Lowden 12-string. Have any folks owned or played any, and if so, thoughts?

Here is what I am looking for, and that the Guild, Taylor, and Breedlove have all failed in various ways to achieve:


- Intonation especially on the 2nd string/usually the 3rd. The Taylor (LKSM model) was especially bad at this. Spent several hundred bucks having a certified Taylor repair guy work on this, to no real avail. When I tuned down, the 2nd course strings would always sound sharp when I fretted them, even when I wasn't pressing down super hard.

- Neck that is friendly to fretting with the thumb. The Breedlove has an unecessarily sharp angle at the sides where the neck and the fretboard meet, which cuts into my thumb when I fret. It's pretty uncomfortable. The side of the Lowden PBSM is the best I have ever experienced in a guitar for thumb fretting. Feels just right.

- Body shape. Again, the Lowden is the best, especially the cut away and slant where the elbow rests on the guitar. It's so good. The Taylor in comparison gave me tendinitis. No fault really of Taylor's - I was playing a jumbo guitar that was too big for me.

- Stays in tune. Enough said. The Breedlove is pretty good at that.

- Action that works for both slide and fretting. The 6 and 12-string LKSM Taylors and they SUCKED at this. Even with the right string gauges (13-56 on the 12 string tuned down 3 steps and even lower when in Open G) it was either good slide and impossible to play barre chords, or the opposite. Ironic given how much slide Kottke plays. I was always fiddling with the truss rod to get a viable solution, which I know is not the purpose of the truss rod. Struggling to play barre chords on that guitar is part of why I got tendinitis.

- Ability to downtune and play well in multiple tunings. I play 7 or 8 diff't open tunings and the guitar has to handle it. This is related to intonation. I am currently using 11-50 gauge on the Breedlove, tuned down a half step when in standard and then lower when I play open tunings ( mostly drop D, DADGAD, open D, and open G).

- To be able to take 11-50 gauge and not just light gauge. So far this is working out well on the Breedlove because I am down tuned. I wouldn't expect to string any 12-string at standard pitch with this gauge.

- Not sound too bright and jangly. I don't think any of the guitars in my price range ($2-4K) will do that. The Breedlove has pretty poor response though on the 1st and 2nd courses, harmonics sound muddy and muted, such that I have to use all nail and play close to the bridge to bring them out. That sucks.


Other than the Lowden, which I hope/assume will meet these requirements based on how fantastic the PBSM 6-string is (I'd probably avoid the line of Lowdens that were made in Japan, just because that's not a true Lowden), are there any other 12-strings that folks can recommend? I play into the guitars pretty heavily, think Kottke and Fahey, so I am looking for a guitar that can handle that.


Related question: How in the heck do folks shop for nice 12 strings? None of the guitar stores around me stock any nice ones for fingerstyle. They are all strung with super light gauges and are mostly Taylors. I'll never buy another Taylor after my bad experiences with the two LKSM guitars I owned. At this point, I think a Lowden is the only guitar I'd buy online without having played.

Many thanks in advance for the replies.

[merlin666]

A new Adamas 12 string is likely out of your price range but sometimes a used one can be found... as for heavy fingerstyle check this out:

[drive-south]

Adamas is out of his price range but Lowden is not?

[Racerbob]

Tony Yamamoto made some baritone 12 strings. I have a custom 6 string by him made to tune d to d and it's intonation is the best I've experienced in alternate tunings so he has a good understanding of how to do beyond the typical . May be hard to find.

I also have a Charlie Hoffman 12 that tuned down a full step without issues. Also very easy to play. Again hard to find but are out there.

[The Bard Rocks]

The OP's concerns were so specific that it will be hard to address correctly. I am not one that can. A guitar which is custom-made for you might be the best solution. The luthier can easily address the neck issues, the body shape, and hopefully get the intonation perfect. Being able to play slide and fingerpick without making changes is very ticklish. If you cannot make compromises on each, it may not be possible. Maybe your style is sophisticated enough that you can get it to work on the right guitar. If isn't for most of us.

For the price of a Lowden, there are numerous luthiers who can compete. Make sure the one you select has made quite a few 12s. That will be important for you. I can recommend Nick Appollonio; he's probably made more 12s than any single man shop out there, even Bozo. And his prices will be surprisingly low.

[drive-south]

I'd recommend 2 guitars. One for slide, one for fretting. I usually play slide in open G and would not want to retune a 12 string to standard.

[donlyn]

Benjo,

I find it hard to match all your criteria to anything I've experienced. Also I note that you are specifically mentioning LKSM Taylors as not to your liking. So at the risk of completely failing, it would help to know whether you have played other Taylor 12 Strings, specifically ones with larger bodies.

Here's where I am coming from, with the knowledge that everybody's tastes are different. I've had at least one 12 string since the 60's. My current favorite is the Taylor 458e-R, spruce over rosewood Grand Orchestra, X-braced, Elixir PB 12 string Lights. Taylor also makes one as an 858e model with a few extra appointments. I also own an 818e spruce over rosewood 6 string Grand Orchestra, X-braced, Elixir PB HD Lights (.013 to .053). I also fingerpick all my instruments, using my fingernails. And I find the Grand Orchestra models, spruce/rosewood and X-braced, are easy to play and possess a great sound. I did notice Doyle was playing with a thumbpick, but that should be OK too.

Maybe you've tried these Grand Orchestra spruce/rosewood 12 strings and found them wanting. But if not, it might be worth a bit of time finding one and checking it out. I find them versatile and generally very good all-around guitars, and the 6-string can play anything extremely well.

Don
.

[L20A]

May I suggest trying a Guild F512 and having a very good Tech set it up with a new nut and saddle that is properly compensated.

This may require widening the saddle slot and installing a wider saddle.
One that had plenty of room to work with for compensation.

Also have the frets leveled, crowned and polished if needed.

[GBS]

All I can say about the LKSM:

1. It took me forever, and multiple luthier trips (Charlie Hoffman!) to get it balanced for barre and slide. Now perfect in all tunings. But it is a very fine balancing act. Now needs 1/4 turn on the truss for the winter, and then turned back in the summer.

2. Try a custom set of strings.
I'm currently on Elixr (mostly for longevity)
13-13
17-17
11-26
14-36
22-46
32-56

For GHS I used:
13-13
17-17
11-w26
14-36
w18-46
32-56

The above are variations of what I found on-line about what Leo was actually using. His actual numbers are pretty impossible to find. And he is far pickier than I will ever be.

But, of course, the above doesn't address all your other items....

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by Benjo

...Long time fingerstyle player (https://soundcloud.com/benddavidson/sets/solo-guitar) and still looking for the right 12-string....

Originally Posted by L20A

May I suggest trying a Guild F512....

I don't have the broad familiarity with different brands that you do, Ben, and I'm not sure what makes a 12-string specifically for fingerstyle, but I agree with L20A. I sure love my jumbo Guilds! which I use for both fingerstyle and flat-picking. As you likely know, the F512 has a rosewood flat back, and the F412 (now "F512 Maple") (or in my case, JF30-12) has a braceless arched lam maple back. It doesn't seem to matter what plant they come out of even though Guild moved around quite a bit. Initially I had a cheap Tak (fingerstyle example) that inspired me to get a Guild. Never looked back.

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by GBS

All I can say about the LKSM:

1. It took me forever, and multiple luthier trips (Charlie Hoffman!) to get it balanced for barre and slide. Now perfect in all tunings. But it is a very fine balancing act. Now needs 1/4 turn on the truss for the winter, and then turned back in the summer.

2. Try a custom set of strings.
I'm currently on Elixr (mostly for longevity)
13-13
17-17
11-26
14-36
22-46
32-56

For GHS I used:
13-13
17-17
11-w26
14-36
w18-46
32-56

The above are variations of what I found on-line about what Leo was actually using. His actual numbers are pretty impossible to find. And he is far pickier than I will ever be.

But, of course, the above doesn't address all your other items....

I agree with this. It is very difficult (I may say almost impossible) to set a guitar to do everything good. Unless you spend a lot of time and money in doing and doing and doing once again.
You want a guitar that can change from standard (I know low tuned) to oped G, open D, open C.... and then play it fretted with barré and slide. I think a 12 string is already a big compromise by itself. Asking her to do all these things well is maybe too much.
Leo himself used different guitars for different purposes in the past. And his left hand was much stronger than common people, so he could manage even an high action. Now he uses only one guitar, but he uses very thin octave strings and the acoustic sound of his guitar (unplugged) is very very poor in my opinion.
I wouldn't like have and play a guitar like that.
In my experience I decided to set up one guitar in standard tuning (3 half step low) and one in open G (3 half step low). For the open G I created (like GBS) a special custom set buying 12 single strings. It works well but even so for slide I would like it with a little higher action. Can I ask you what kind of slide do you use? At the moment I am using the original Acusta Glide Slide. Like they suggest if you use it reversed, with the thinner side on the end of your finger, it works really good with a low action. You can give it a try if you haven't already done.
I can't suggest a guitar because I am the guy that opened the other thread asking how to upgrade a LKSM. If you find something working please share your experience. I think we are in the same needing. Good luck.