Scales and modes

[mawmow]

Thanks @JonPR for the timely reminder.

My message intended only to mention that it may not be necessary to master modes to play music.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by JonPR

My recommendation:


Forget about modes! Especially don't think of fretboard patterns as modes: that way lies endless confusion.
.

I agree and disagree. It depends on how your mind works. But knowledge of the modes, the who what where, when and why of it can help a player become more versatile

Music is a language and modes are like speaking with different dialects
Or I like to say, each mode is like a different flavor ice cream
It can be confusing at first but once you know the major scale you can then branch out to the seven patterns up the guitar neck and there pentatonic equivalent. loads of references on the net. The basics of modes is ….mode/flavors will start on a different root note of a given scale, which gives it the unique flavor associated with that mode.

[rmp]

start with a C major scale, and try to use each interval as the first note of the scale.

Get C down, then move to D, E,, you get the idea

That should help you break free of the pentatonic boxes and the occasional landing on a not so ideal note. (or just play that sucker twice and call it Atonal Jazz man...)

[Italuke]

Learn MUSIC. Learn some keyboard, NOT note reading, but playing from lead sheets and constructing chords on your own.

And yes, FORGET about modes.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Italuke

And yes, FORGET about modes.

That's a bit situational. Playing trad noter drone dulcimer at old time sessions, when the call was "go to A tunes", I had to be able to hear if that tune was mixolidian (eg June Apple) or ionian (eg Buffalo Gals) or aeolian (eg Cold and Frosty Morning) because I had to re-tune for each mode within the same key.

With guitar this skill has proved useful at campfire sessions. When someone sings a folk song, I can hear the mode and build my chord backing from there.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

I agree and disagree. It depends on how your mind works. But knowledge of the modes, the who what where, when and why of it can help a player become more versatile

Provided the understanding - the definitions of terms - is correct, yes. But there is so much misinformation out there about modes - and their role in music so exaggerated - that it will do no harm at all to forget about them entirely, and just comtinue learning any music you like.

You may well end up playing music that could properly be defined as "modal" (in fact, with acoustic guitar and folk music it's quite likely), but you don't have to know or care, because it makes zero difference to how you play it, or how you might improvise on it.

Of course, it's good to be curious, and more theory knowledge helps give an overview of how music works, and how to organise information in your head. But countless great musicians (in vernacular genres) have no idea of modes at all, even when they're playing them.

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Music is a language and modes are like speaking with different dialects
Or I like to say, each mode is like a different flavor ice cream

Yes. More like different flavours of "major" or "minor", to get closer to music.

Originally Posted by Mbroady

It can be confusing at first but once you know the major scale you can then branch out to the seven patterns up the guitar neck

Of course, but that's nothing to do with "modes"! (And IMO 5 patterns are enough, 7 is overkill.)

Originally Posted by Mbroady

and there pentatonic equivalent. loads of references on the net. The basics of modes is ….mode/flavors will start on a different root note of a given scale, which gives it the unique flavor associated with that mode.

Nope. I.e., you may well know what you mean here, and you might be right! - but this is the root of the widespread misunderstanding.

A mode is a whole lot more than just "starting on a different note". The root note has to be the keynote too. (The ending note is actually more important than the starting one.)

I.e., some people who've read a little about modes think that if a piece of music is in C major, you can somehow impose - say - a "phrygian mood" by starting the scale on E. That might well have a more interesting sound than starting on C, but it's not a "phrygian" sound. It's an accent on the 3rd of C major.

To play in E phrygian, you first need to have Em as your key chord, the clear tonal centre (and not just the iii chord in C major). Then you can play the C major scale over it - in any fret position - and you will get the "E phrygian" sound. You can accentuate it be resolving phrases to E via F all the time, but you don't have to. The mix of chord and scale gives you the mode. But only when E is the keynote. Not when the Em is in C major (or G major or D major).

So - for making your own music - I agree that knowledge of modes is very useful, as a way of escaping the habits of composing in major and minor keys (with traditional "chord progressions").

But for playing existing music - even when it is actually in a mode - they're of little or no practical use. All you need to know is the notes and chords in the song - they give you all the scale/key/mode information you need, and you don't have to identify it as any specific theoretical concept. Just where to find all those notes on your instrument....

[mr. beaumont]

Exactly!

There IS music that is clearly "modal." Most people will never encounter it. And that's totally fine. The part that gets dangerous is when people try to force things to fit situations where they don't...

Back to the OP, a worship guitar player with a good ear looking to play the blues. The first step should be to listen to great blues players and steal some licks. THEN you can go back and analyze what those licks fit into, if you want. Chances are they're going to come from 2 and a half different positions of the minor pentatonic/blues scale. You might catch a bit of major pentatonic. Maybe.

The set of notes isn't magic. It's what notes a player chooses to highlight on each chord of a blues. That's the difference between a good blues player and not. Good players adjust to the chords, not so good players don't.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Exactly!

There IS music that is clearly "modal." Most people will never encounter it. And that's totally fine. The part that gets dangerous is when people try to force things to fit situations where they don't...

Back to the OP, a worship guitar player with a good ear looking to play the blues. The first step should be to listen to great blues players and steal some licks. THEN you can go back and analyze what those licks fit into, if you want. Chances are they're going to come from 2 and a half different positions of the minor pentatonic/blues scale. You might catch a bit of major pentatonic. Maybe.

The set of notes isn't magic. It's what notes a player chooses to highlight on each chord of a blues. That's the difference between a good blues player and not. Good players adjust to the chords, not so good players don't.

Would this also to apply to great rockabilly guitar lead playing? I mean there are usually more chords. Learn more scales first you think?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

Would this also to apply to great rockabilly guitar lead playing? I mean there are usually more chords. Learn more scales first you think?

Rockabilly songs tend to still be relatively simple chord wise...I hear the players playing out of chord shapes a lot, lots of doublestops, definitely some minor pentatonic (particularly with the maj3rd included, and the 6th too) some of the guys who leaned a little "jazz" will use more chromatics. And rockabilly players love their little pet licks and tricks..But there's not really any "rockabilly" sounding scales...

Any particular players you're thinking of?

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Rockabilly songs tend to still be relatively simple chord wise...I hear the players playing out of chord shapes a lot, lots of doublestops, definitely some minor pentatonic (particularly with the maj3rd included, and the 6th too) some of the guys who leaned a little "jazz" will use more chromatics. And rockabilly players love their little pet licks and tricks..But there's not really any "rockabilly" sounding scales...

Any particular players you're thinking of?

Brian Setzer, and a guy called Junior Watson, more of a jump blues guy.

I’m hearing stuff outside the minor pentatonics.

[mr. beaumont]

Setzer and anything "jump blues" related definitely is going to lean jazz.

But you're probably still hearing guys who are thinking a lot about chords and arpeggios and playing changes using them. Setzer loves augmented chords (they work well as a V chord), like that augmented arpeggio in the intro lick to "Stray Cat Strut." And you will hear a LOT of chromatics in Setzer's playing.

A lot of that can sound like these guys know some esoteric scales, but everything is still just tied to the chords. You can actually play most jazz up to the late 50's without knowing any scales outside of the good old major and blues scales.

Listening to Watson now...lots of chromatics, pet licks. He treats each chord in a 3 chord blues differently--playing changes. He's extending the chords too, 9ths, 13ths...I could probably put together a little video that addresses playing changes over a blues, getting away from just pentatonic licks...some chromatics, partial chords and arpeggios can take things uptown very quickly!

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Setzer and anything "jump blues" related definitely is going to lean jazz.

But you're probably still hearing guys who are thinking a lot about chords and arpeggios and playing changes using them. Setzer loves augmented chords (they work well as a V chord), like that augmented arpeggio in the intro lick to "Stray Cat Strut." And you will hear a LOT of chromatics in Setzer's playing.

A lot of that can sound like these guys know some esoteric scales, but everything is still just tied to the chords. You can actually play most jazz up to the late 50's without knowing any scales outside of the good old major and blues scales.

Awesome knowledge! Are they generally using chord substitutions, or just kind of altering or extending the chords?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

Awesome knowledge! Are they generally using chord substitutions, or just kind of altering or extending the chords?

I come at things from a jazz perspective, so chord subs or superimpositions are something I think about a lot, but I think to play more authentically jump blues or rockabilly, it's more in the extensions and the chromatics.

In like Watson's case (and by the way, thanks for turning me on to him, I like his style a lot) your going to be hearing a blues with more than 3 chords too. So like if the basic form was...

| A7| D7| A7| A7|
| D7 | D7 | A7 | A7 |
| E7| D7 | A7 | E7|

you might hear him do something like...

|A7 | D7| A7| A7 |
|D7 | D#dim7 | A7 | F#7|
|Bm7 | E7 | A7 F#7 | Bm7 E7 |

And then of course, those chords don't have to be just 7ths...try a 9th on the one chord, now you're in T Bone Walker territory...make that last E7 an E7b9 and it's gonna get all jazz on ya.

And of course, the really crazy thing is you can super-impose some of this stuff on a 3 chord blues (if the feel is right) and you'll sound like you know every scale on the planet

[Joe Beamish]

^ Wow!

I’m sure I speak for more players than just myself, in wanting to learn more of this, without necessarily quite tackling what’s generally known as “jazz.” Your comments really help to frame that direction.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm glad it can be helpful. Jazz is kind of one of those things where you can take things so far, there's just tons of different approaches, and yeah, things can get really heady and complex...but you can get in the door by just knowing a few things really well. Obviously, rhythmically, you gotta swing, and harmonically/melodically, you gotta play changes (Again, for a lot of, not all)