The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:46 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 158
Default

A shorter scale, to counterbalance the additional tension, is the only way I would consider a 12 string.

The shortest steel string guitar I've played that didn't feel too short is the Blackbird Rider, at 24.5". 24.75" will be fine.

In theory, any shorter scale would require lighter bracing, but I have no experience in this area so I have no idea where theory and practical reality intersect.

Personally, I would like all of my guitars to have the same scale length. Since I'm into nylon crossovers, the shortest scale I would choose is 640mm (25.2").
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-24-2017, 03:09 PM
KenG KenG is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 42
Default Short scale 12 string

I've tried A Taylor 12 string, 12 fret with a 24 7/8 scale that was a joy to play with great sound. I'm sure Emerald could make one that would be a joy to play and own. Would get one but I recently got a X20 Artisan teardrop mahogany and I'm fine with that at present. Good luck with your quest.
__________________
Northern Sweden: Taylor 814, Taylor SB electric, Levin 1959 nylon string, Bubinga Cajon, Emerald X20 Woody teardrop mahogany
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:00 PM
Frettingflyer Frettingflyer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 350
Default

Hi Earl,
I played a 562ce 12 fret and it was so much easier than my old 456ce! I would not hesitate to get the short scale, it will allow you to play if medical issues are ever a concern. If I get another 12 string it will be one of the Taylor's or the X20 with the short scale. Intonation was not an issue on the Taylor.
__________________
Dave
McPherson Sable, Blackbird Lucky 13, Rainsong OM1000. Various wood, mostly Taylors
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:08 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default

Thanks, FF. As we have privately discussed, I do have some minor left hand weakness from a medical event a while back. That becomes apparent when I play my Taylor twelve-string this weekend, hence the question. I can play it for some time OK, but a shorter scale and lessened tension would be nice.

I just sent an email to Sean asking about modifying my order to the shorter 24.75" scale length, and I expect he will respond tomorrow (it is already too late today in Ireland). Then it would match the scale of my Lucky 13, which is quite comfy.

Also thanks to everyone who commented so far -- it has been helpful. I will update the thread once I hear back from Emerald.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:56 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default update

I likely will stay with regular 25.5" scale, but no final decision yet. The price came back a little higher than I had hoped for the short scale option, and I can down-tune and capo a LOT to get and effective short scale while saving considerable coin. What started out as a simple Opus version of the X20-12 has escalated by a considerable amount now.

They were perfectly willing to do either 24.6" or 24.9" scale and that would be more comfortable in the long run. I certainly don't begrudge Emerald their price for the extra work, just hoping it would be about half of what it was. Still pondering...... On one hand, it is totaling up to more than I wanted to spend on a twelve string. On the other hand, I should get exactly what I want the first time for long term peace of mind.

What Fretting Flyer was referring to is some weakness in my left hand due to a neurological event ~4˝ years ago. I lost about 5% of the strength in that hand permanently. So far it has not inhibited my playing my Taylor 12-string for an hour plus at a time. I need to try the capo experiment more before finally deciding.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:07 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 158
Default

Since your resistance is financial, some basic economics can be introduced.

Consider the value of your time and effort, then multiply that by the additional time and effort required to tune the guitar with a capo, then multiply that by the lifetime of the guitar. Compare this to the cost of customization.

or

Place a value on the ease of tuning without a capo, multiply that by how often you anticipate the need to tune over the lifetime of the guitar, and compare this to the cost of customization.

Using a capo would definitely work, and maybe with the stability of cf there won't be a lot of tuning, so I don't know the answer.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:25 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default

Thanks for the perspective Tom. I will more than likely get over the incremental cost and go short scale. I really only get one chance at this and need to do it right the first time. This is really more "thinking out loud". I can easily afford it, or would not be considering this Emerald in the first place.

Funny but I can regularly make five-figure business decisions much easier than something so personal.... and I bill my time hourly so I know exactly how my time is worth.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:37 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
... want to stick at or near standard guitar pitches I have a 24.25" scale length parlor guitar. It is definitely easier to play, but is enough shorter that it requires a few minutes of adaption, to avoid reaching one fret too far.
I just remembered this. With a 25.5" scale, the first fret is 1 7/16" away from the nut. Using a capo on the first fret to simulate a shorter scale is equivalent to having a guitar with a 24.0625" scale. If 24.25" is known to require adaptation, then 24.0625" is not what you want in a new guitar.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-26-2017, 10:14 PM
mot mot is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 1,221
Default

Earl,

I think you are at a cost per use question in regards to your 12 string quest. If you get a 12 string that you have to capo for comfort, then will you play it as much as a 12 string with the 24.6 inch scale? To make the math easy, let's say that the shorter scale cost 10% more and you would play it about an hour a day. Let's go further and assume you would play the longer scale with a capo about half as much. This means that your per use cost for the shorter scale guitar is 1.1/1 or 1.1 and your per use cost for the longer scale with the capo is 1.0/0.5 = 2.0. In other words you are actually saving money by getting the more expensive guitar (assuming the above playing assumptions are close to correct) because you are going to use it more.

The bottom line is that this is why I rarely look at price when I am figuring out what product I want. Cost per use considerations have served me well in the past, even though I occasionally guess poorly.

The other piece of the puzzle is that you can generally sell your guitar if you find it's not quite what you wanted and hope to do better on the next round. This is where I screwed up because I love both the X20 with the 25.5. inch scale and the Lucky 13 with the 24.75 inch scale. I have turned off my GAS until I figure out how to part with one of these else I would probably be talking to Sean about getting a 6 or 12 string with the shorter scale.
__________________
Cheers,
Tom

PS If you don't want to invest in yourself, why should anyone else even bother to try?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-27-2017, 01:14 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default decision!

I played my current twelve-string Taylor more capoed on the first fret, and decided that the shorter scale would be worth it. So I just sent Sean at Emerald an email going ahead with the 24.9" scale length. I didn't feel the need to go shorter still to 24.6", the other option that he offered.

Twelve string is a niche guitar for me and gets about 15% of my play time in total. That is why I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible. But getting it "just right" is important too.

Again, thanks to all for all the useful commentary.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-18-2017, 02:00 PM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North of the Golden Gate, South of the Redwoods, East of the Pacific and West of the Sierras
Posts: 10,569
Default shorter scale for twelve string?

I deleted this post - misunderstood the question. Sorry 'bout that.

Best,
Jayne

Last edited by jaymarsch; 08-18-2017 at 06:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-19-2017, 12:59 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default

No problem, Jayne.

BTW, I have since contacted Sean and decided to go shorter still to 24.6" scale. To experiment, I played my Taylor tuned to Eb and capo'ed at the first fret, for an effective 24" scale length. After a couple of weeks, I like that.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-19-2017, 01:59 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 7,908
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
On a wood 12-er, the extra tension helps to drive the top. My thought is that will be less critical in the X20 CF world.
.
Given how many people tune a 12 down a half step or a full step, I certainly would not worry about the slightly lower tension of going to a short scale.

In Re wooden 12s: I believe that one of the newer Taylors is short scale.
__________________
Larrivee OM-03RE; O-01
Martin D-35; Guild F-212; Tacoma Roadking
Breedlove American Series C20/SR
Rainsong SFTA-FLE; WS3000; CH-PA
Taylor GA3-12, Guild F-212

https://markhorning.bandcamp.com/music
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-19-2017, 02:20 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,067
Default

FWIW, my '64 Martin D12-20 is 24.9" and yes, I tune down one tone (D).
I use D'addario ej37s "medium-heavy" with 12s at first.
My sixes are 25.5" but I don't notice the difference changing from one to the other.
__________________
Silly Moustache,
Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-19-2017, 03:04 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
My Emerald X20-12 was ordered recently, but the build has not started yet (scheduled December delivery). But this weekend it occurred to me that I enjoy the shorter scale length on the two guitars that have them. What do folks think of selecting 24-3/4" for a twelve string instead of the standard 25.5"?

All of the twelve's I've had were full scale, including the current Taylor 354-LTD. The advantages of shorter scale and possibly lower tension seem worth considering. I normally tune to standard pitch E-e, BTW. This is a comfort thing, not an "I can't play the longer scale" issue.
That's similar to how Martin is building the D12-28s. I just bought one. Easy to play. 14 frets to the neck.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=