Length of warranty for small shop builders

[SteveS]

How long should the warranty be from a small shop custom builder. Most guys offer a warranty for as long as the builder is still working as such. I recently had a conversation with a builder that offers a five year warranty. He made a compelling case that 5 years is plenty and that any problems after 5 years is from neglect and abuse, not materials of workmanship.
Most offer lifetime warranties to the original customer with limits for wear and tear, intentional and unintentional abuse. Case, tuners, and electronics generally carry the manufacturer's warranty.
The legal and accounting nightmare of a lifetime warranty make this a pretty important point for builders. It seems that many have copied what others are doing rather than giving serious consideration to this with proper legal and financial consideration.
I've rarely seen what recourse is given if the builder decides that a repair is not covered. It seems that some sort of arbitration would be worth while. I also suspect that builders have fixed countless guitars that were damaged due to neglect or abuse under warranty to maintain their very important reputation.

Do you consider the warranty when purchasing or commissioning an instrument?
If someone offers a 5 year warranty do you think that is good enough?
Would you expect a guitar with a 5 year warranty is not as well built as a guitar with a lifetime warranty?
Should it depend on the price of the instruments? (I would expect a $20K instrument to have a better warranty than a $2K instrument.)
What else are you thinking about?
What do you think and why?

(5 years is offered merely as a point of discussion. Insert any length of time you fell appropriate.)


(Edit - This was supposed to be a poll. Please indicate how long of a warranty you think is fair or that you expect.)

[cpabolting]

I would like to think that if any of our friendly luthiers here on AGF built a guitar for someone and there was some manufacturing defect or a failure or sorts, I would be willing to bet that if they determined it was not due to owner neglect and was in fact a failure in the guitar that was used as intended, that they would not step up and take care of it regardless if within 5 years or not. Most seem to do life of the builder which is reasonable. But for the most part you would think if something were very wrong, it would happen within 5 years.

I think nothing of buying a used guitar as long as I have inspected it properly or as long as the seller is reputable.

Outside of being the original owner, or in the rare case of owning a Martin D-76 (that has a transferrable lifetime warranty to ANY purchaser), which in such case it will be a covered repair, Martin will fix seemingly anything for a fee.

[tkuane]

Do you consider the warranty when purchasing or commissioning an instrument?
Yes, I consider the warranty.

If someone offers a 5 year warranty do you think that is good enough?
No, I do not think it is good enough.

Would you expect a guitar with a 5 year warranty is not as well built as a guitar with a lifetime warranty?
I would suspect so, I would think that it is true in at least some examples

Should it depend on the price of the instruments? (I would expect a $20K instrument to have a better warranty than a $2K instrument.)
No, expensive guitar are generally more fragile.

What else are you thinking about?
What do you think and why?
The overwhelming majority of people who purchase from small shops already have prior experience with guitars, so they should already know how to take care of them.

Also, wouldn't a guitar that wasn't properly cared for develop problems in the first 5 years anyway if it will develop problems at all? I don't think reducing the warranty period will reduce warranty claims of guitars that have been damaged purely from neglect.

A lifetime warranty to the original owner that covers any defects during the building process is more a statement to the customer than anything. It says, "This guitar is built by me. It is well-built and will last you a lifetime.". I think it is a part of a very good sales pitch. Guitars should last as least as long as their owners, and this warranty is very important to reassure the customers that they are purchasing a fine instrument and their money is well spent.

When I fall in love with a guitar and buy it, I'm sure the builder would not want the guitar to expire before me.

I expect at least a lifetime warranty to the original owner. The big factories seems to be able to do it, so I don't see why the small workshops are unable to.

[mesa]

Originally Posted by cpabolting

I would like to think that if any of our friendly luthiers here on AGF built a guitar for someone and there was some manufacturing defect or a failure or sorts, I would be willing to bet that if they determined it was not due to owner neglect and was in fact a failure in the guitar that was used as intended, that they would not step up and take care of it regardless if within 5 years or not. Most seem to do life of the builder which is reasonable. But for the most part you would think if something were very wrong, it would happen within 5 years.

I agree with Keith here. I took delivery on a guitar 2 months ago from a small shop custom builder with a 5 year warranty. It didn't make me question a thing about the builder or his work. He has a great reputation and does outstanding work....that's the reality of the warranty for me.

Good question Steve!

[riorider]

While I realize there could be legal risk issues for the luthiers offering a lifetime warranty, they also take on other risks that small businesses of any type have to bear. Big manufacturers can cover themselves (with attorneys) but I'd think most of "our" luthiers would be just at risk. Hopefully they carry some kind of liability that would keep them in business.

Anyway, maybe that's all irrelevant. At this point - BECAUSE most of the luthiers offer a lifetime warranty, if I were to consider a guitar from a builder and then read that they "only" offered a 5 year warranty, I'd wonder why, and probably steer clear.

I do expect a lifetime warranty on the things they are responsible for, and accept my own responsibility for keeping the guitar from impact, heat/cold, humidity, and other similar shocks.

rr/Phil

[cpabolting]

Originally Posted by riorider

While I realize there could be legal risk issues for the luthiers offering a lifetime warranty, they also take on other risks that small businesses of any type have to bear. Big manufacturers can cover themselves (with attorneys) but I'd think most of "our" luthiers would be just at risk. Hopefully they carry some kind of liability that would keep them in business.

Anyway, maybe that's all irrelevant. At this point - BECAUSE most of the luthiers offer a lifetime warranty, if I were to consider a guitar from a builder and then read that they "only" offered a 5 year warranty, I'd wonder why, and probably steer clear.

I do expect a lifetime warranty on the things they are responsible for, and accept my own responsibility for keeping the guitar from impact, heat/cold, humidity, and other similar shocks.

rr/Phil

Goodall is the only one that I am aware of that does 5 years...but at his discretion he can extend it. If it is a manufacturing defect, then they should and in all liklihood, will.

[Martin_Nut]

I haven't heard of a "lifetime warranty" covering damage resulting from neglect or accident on the part of the original owner, be it single luthier or a company such as Martin. Therefore it seems to me to be a moot point ... why not offer a "limited" (to workmanship) lifetime warranty?

I do take into account who I am dealing with when ordering a guitar - meaning how likely I am to have to come back for a warranty repair or "major" adjustment, and is the builder likely to be around to do the job. Also, how long they take to respond to warranty issues is a concern. Most of the later type of feedback is anecdotal with small builders, of course.

I will pay more for a better established builder who's reputation and work warrant a premium.

[mesa]

Originally Posted by cpabolting

Goodall is the only one that I am aware of that does 5 years...but at his discretion he can extend it. If it is a manufacturing defect, then they should and in all liklihood, will.

John How also has a 5 year.....I'm not afraid

[Brent Hutto]

I don't know what warranty he provides in writing to the original owner but when John Walker heard that I had bought one of his early (serial #008) guitars second-hand he immediately let me know that he stands behind his instruments no matter who is the owner. I would not hesitate to call on him should any issues arise, although frankly the guitar was built nearly four years ago and seems unlikely to experience any defects at this late date.

When I inquired for details of the original saddle (which had been lowered and flattened before I bought it) he just made an identical replacement saddle, adjusted it to my desired action height and sent it to me gratis. That is probably the kind of service offered by many of the one-man shops but it sure impressed me with John and Deb's commitment to their guitars and their owners.

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by tkuane

I expect at least a lifetime warranty to the original owner. The big factories seems to be able to do it, so I don't see why the small workshops are unable to.

Hmmm, what is more than a lifetime? The builder's children have to honor the warranty too? If you are a young player and your luthier is several decades older, are you getting a good deal if you get "only" a lifetime warranty?

I am curious to learn what manner of builder-responsible defects one might anticipate to manifest themselves after 5 years and not be attributable to normal use.

One of my Gurians got a neck reset at about 5 years, the other has never needed one and it is over 30 years old.

[mesa]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

I am curious to learn what manner of builder-responsible defects one might anticipate to manifest themselves after 5 years and not be attributable to normal use.

Exactly!.....wish I had a life time warranty on my house and car

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by tkuane

[I]The big factories seems to be able to do it, so I don't see why the small workshops are unable to.

First off, I don't think most one-man shops consider themselves in direct competition to Martin, et. al.

Secondly, if necessary the factories have the option of just supplying a replacement instrument in cases of an otherwise unresolvable claim situation. The cost structure of one-man shops does not necessarily allow this recourse.

[tkuane]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

Hmmm, what is more than a lifetime? The builder's children have to honor the warranty too? If you are a young player and your luthier is several decades older, are you getting a good deal if you get "only" a lifetime warranty?

A lifetime warranty to the original owner as opposed to all future owners. In other words, a limited lifetime warranty. You misunderstood or misread me.

[tkuane]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

First off, I don't think most one-man shops consider themselves in direct competition to Martin, et. al.

Secondly, if necessary the factories have the option of just supplying a replacement instrument in cases of an otherwise unresolvable claim situation. The cost structure of one-man shops does not necessarily allow this recourse.

It's not about competition and also, I don't see how that applies. Legitimate warranty claims are quite clear cut (and very rare among custom builders) and also depends on the honesty of the builder, as with many other factors commissioning an instrument. If the builder is not at fault, there is no claim. It's obvious to the builder whether a guitar was damaged due to building defects or owner neglect. I can't think of a situation where a warranty dispute between the customer and builder would be unresolvable, since a relationship has to be estalished before the guitar building even begins, unless the customer is unreasonable with some ulterior motive; in which case, it doesn't really matter what your warranty claim is, you'll still get trouble from that customer. Because warranty claims are much much rarer among any competent builders, it is less of a worry percentage wise to the custom builder.

Custom guitars have to be higher quality than the factory ones, we are paying more for them after all. Having the custom builders equal the warranty of the large factories while the custom builders are producing a superior built instrument is not an unreasonable claim at all.

As said before, having at least a limited lifetime warranty assures the potential customer. Presently, it is also expected that small shop to custom builders provide at least such a warranty.

Again on your second point, legitimate warranty claims are very rare among custom builders. Even then, it is unlikely that a brand new instrument has to be built as a replacement unless it is overwhelmingly the builder's fault (I can't imagine such a scenario short of the builder physically coming over to break the guitar him/herself) Things like wrong angles, dead spots, etc shouldn't even be on a high end guitar in the first place.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by tkuane

It's not about competition and also, I don't see how that applies.

You said that small shops ought to offer the same warrranty as factories. My point is that small shops and factories are not competing against each other and therefore the warranties offered by factories are not a valid point of comparison in setting policy for a small shop.

If the builder is not at fault, there is no claim. It's obvious to the builder whether a guitar was damaged due to building defects or owner neglect.

Martin will reset a neck on a 40 year old guitar under warranty. That is not due to a building defect. It is a service they offer to original owners as a selling point for their guitars (and the propagate the meme that Martin guitars are heirlooms that you keep forever and ever).

I can't think of a situation where a warranty dispute between the customer and builder would be unresolvable, since a relationship has to be estalished before the guitar building even begins, unless the customer is unreasonable with some ulterior motive; in which case, it doesn't really matter what your warranty claim is, you'll still get trouble from that customer. Because warranty claims are much much rarer among any competent builders, it is less of a worry percentage wise to the custom builder.

What you can or can't think of is not binding on every customer of every guitar builder. Any warranty coverage they offer, they had better be prepared to back up. And in terms of "percentage wise", for a guy who sells ten guitars a year and has sold maybe a hundred in his career, just one impossible to please customer with a specious warranty claim is a huge problem, percentage-wise.

Custom guitars have to be higher quality than the factory ones, we are paying more for them after all. Having the custom builders equal the warranty of the large factories while the custom builders are producing a superior built instrument is not an unreasonable claim at all.

Price paid does not guarantee quality, in guitars or any other product. You keep stating assumptions that you choose to make as though they are shared by everyone or have the force of fact. Speaking only for myself, I do not in the least care how a custom builder's warranty compares to any given factory.

I'm happy with John Walker's assertion that he will "stand behind" any guitar he builds. That is totally too vague and unspecified to work for a mass production outfit, which is fine by me. I didn't buy a mass-produced guitar. I'll settle for the builder's best-faith effort to provide a recourse that suits his own (very high) standards of service. I don't need some list of inclusions and exclusions, original owner this and five-year that, take it to an authorized service location, yada, yada, yada.

As said before, having at least a limited lifetime warranty assures the potential customer. Presently, it is also expected that small shop to custom builders provide at least such a warranty.

Except I know of one-man shops whose warranties are a) not limited and b) not lifetime yet they are well-respected, premium builders who sell as many guitars as they build year in and year out. You have made up this criteria of "limited lifetime warranty" and keep restating that "it is expected" as though everyone shares your own peculiar set of assumptions. Not true, not in general, certainly not in every case.

...legitimate warranty claims are very rare among custom builders. Even then, it is unlikely that a brand new instrument has to be built as a replacement unless it is overwhelmingly the builder's fault (I can't imagine such a scenario short of the builder physically coming over to break the guitar him/herself) Things like wrong angles, dead spots, etc shouldn't even be on a high end guitar in the first place.

The concern of course is not "legitimate warranty claims". The concern is the relationship between builder and owners and the perception of the builder by potential buyers. It matters not how a warranty is worded, the owners are going to claim whatever they are inclined to claim and the builder will have to decide how to honor that claim (or not). Saying "limited" or not, saying "lifetime" or not, specifying "original owner" or not are just words. The builder's reputation will be set by how he actually satisfies his clients over time. Even the ones whose claims are not "legitimate" in your estimation.

P.S. And with that, I'm done. What a fitting post on which to depart forum life for a while. Not!