Is the best day in the life of a Cedar top guitar.........

[SprintBob]

.......the first day it is played?

During the course of an interesting discussion with a highly regarded luthier (name will not be given) about a new build, we discussed the guitars I currently own and play. Two Taylors in my quiver have cedar tops (my cedar/EIR GS7 and my cedar/koa 714 (a Taylor Ltd model). While the luthier acknowledged that a cedar guitar can sound very good, he did not choose to offer cedar as an option because he believed that once built and being played, it will be in a steady state of decline of tone over its life, admittedly subtle but the total opposite of what we expect with other top woods like spruces, mahogany, and koa. While the decline could be subtle, he simply did not want to build a guitar that he believed would not improve in tone with age and playing time.

But it certainly begs the question if others believe this is accurate or if the change is so slight that a lot of players and builders believe that cedar tone for the human ear remains constant/consistent over the life of an instrument built with it. I think even if approaching significant, for an owner it would be hard to detect because I believe your ears would adjust. And you could compensate for it with strings, picks, playing technique, etc. to a degree IMO.

It was an interesting viewpoint that caught me a bit by surprise since luthiers like Richard Hoover and Jim Olson build very good cedar top guitars and cedar is certainly popular with builders of classical guitars.

What’s your experience/opinion?

[TBman]

First time I've heard/read that.

[JayBee1404]

I've had my cedar-topped Lowden for 16 years. It sounds better and better as time goes by, sounding better now than ever.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[noledog]

Baloney imo and experience ...I've owned several cedar topped guitars Lowden, Avalon 10 to 15 years old that sound better than ever, the Lowden was sold, but my son still has the Avalon. I've also owned several MIJ Taks for years with cedar tops that get played/"broke in" a lot as a full-time performer, they continue to sound warm and beautiful as ever.

eric

[Jukie]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

.......the first day it is played?

During the course of an interesting discussion with a highly regarded luthier (name will not be given) about a new build, we discussed the guitars I currently own and play. Two Taylors in my quiver have cedar tops (my cedar/EIR GS7 and my cedar/koa 714 (a Taylor Ltd model). While the luthier acknowledged that a cedar guitar can sound very good, he did not choose to offer cedar as an option because he believed that once built and being played, it will be in a steady state of decline of tone over its life, admittedly subtle but the total opposite of what we expect with other top woods like spruces, mahogany, and koa. While the decline could be subtle, he simply did not want to build a guitar that he believed would not improve in tone with age and playing time.

But it certainly begs the question if others believe this is accurate or if the change is so slight that a lot of players and builders believe that cedar tone for the human ear remains constant/consistent over the life of an instrument built with it. I think even if approaching significant, for an owner it would be hard to detect because I believe your ears would adjust. And you could compensate for it with strings, picks, playing technique, etc. to a degree IMO.

It was an interesting viewpoint that caught me a bit by surprise since luthiers like Richard Hoover and Jim Olson build very good cedar top guitars and cedar is certainly popular with builders of classical guitars.

What’s your experience/opinion?

You should be able to tell from your two cedar tops that you currently own. How have they changed over the years?

[Edgar Poe]

We have had this discussion before, I would like to know how anyone can compare the sound of a guitar today, as compared to how it sounded 40 years ago ?
There are three variables that I can not figure out how you can reconcile.

1-The hearing change the individual experiences over their lifetime.

2-The conditions in which the guitar is, and was being played in.

3-The ability of the player SHOULD have substantially improved over 40 years.

You would have to have the exact same acoustic environment, and the exact same recording equipment, to compare the responses from the instrument at it's different stages. IMPOSSIBLE.

Ed

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by Jukie

You should be able to tell from your two cedar tops that you currently own. How have they changed over the years?

No difference I can detect. The GS7 is a 2011 build and it was in mint condition when I got it so I don’t think it had much playing time. The 714 is too new (fall 2017).

Honestly I don’t want to get people riled up. I just thought it was a sincere opinion based on this individual’s understanding and experience with cedar’s tonal properties. My opinion is more towards it stays constant/consistent and perhaps any improvement/change in a cedar top guitar could be related with the back/side woods over time in terms of any opening up of the tone.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

We have had this discussion before, I would like to know how anyone can compare the sound of a guitar today, as compared to how it sounded 40 years ago ?
There are three variables that I can not figure out how you can reconcile.

1-The hearing change the individual experiences over their lifetime.

2-The conditions in which the guitar is, and was being played in.

3-The ability of the player SHOULD have substantially improved over 40 years.

You would have to have the exact same acoustic environment, and the exact same recording equipment, to compare the responses from the instrument at it's different stages. IMPOSSIBLE.

Ed

I would agree with all of your points.

[Bob Womack]

I heard a story that there were two competing Spanish classical luthiers, one who build with spruce tables and the other with cedar. The luthier who built with spruce wanted an edge over the other so he invented a rumor that cedar tables lasted a very short time while spruce tables lasted a long time.

According to what I heard, the whole rumor of self-destructing cedar tops springs from that one rivalry.

Bob

[Tony Burns]

Not sure if they decline like that -this the first Ive heard this -
but I do know they mature faster - my Lucida has a Cedar top
and I think I bought that in 2006 -its sound is very good.
Not sure why they refer to Cedar as going to the dark side
but sound wise its beautiful .

[Tomo]

I was always under the impression that cedar didn't change much over time, most likely because I used to play classical.

Copied from classicalguitardelcamp.com:

1. What’s the difference between spruce and cedar tops?

Spruce tends to produce a brighter, more focussed tone with strong trebles and good clarity/separation. Cedar gives a warmer, fuller tone but with less clarity. It is generally thought that cedar opens up quicker than spruce. Cedar perhaps gives a more traditional "Spanish" sound, and spruce is more suited to Baroque or Renaissance music.
Although the choice of tonewood for the top of the guitar does have a significant effect on the tone of the guitar, there are many other factors that are of greater significance.

[Imbler]

As a builder, I can state as a fact that guitars open up with time. It is extremely obvious from when first strung up.

Now people can debate about -how long- guitars continue to open up.

Anyway, the only reason a cedar would sound best the day it was strung up is if it were so lightly built that the opening up process took it past its peak. And that could happen exactly the same for a spruce guitar.

So I don't believe this would be true only of cedar guitars. And IMHO, any guitar that sounds its best the day it is strung up won't survive long in the world as it is structurally insufficient.

[DukeX]

I first heard the "Cedar never sounds better than it does the first day" story over 20 yrs ago. I've had two Cedar topped guitars (1995 Webber OM + 1996 Larrivee L-30 nylon) for that long, and I can't say I can/could tell one way or the other. All I know is that they both sounded awesome the day I bought them (which is why I bought them), and they both sound awesome today.

[der Geist]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

No difference I can detect. The GS7 is a 2011 build and it was in mint condition when I got it so I don’t think it had much playing time. The 714 is too new (fall 2017).

Honestly I don’t want to get people riled up. I just thought it was a sincere opinion based on this individual’s understanding and experience with cedar’s tonal properties. My opinion is more towards it stays constant/consistent and perhaps any improvement/change in a cedar top guitar could be related with the back/side woods over time in terms of any opening up of the tone.

Shouldn’t the 2017 714 be Lutz Spruce?

[Orion252]

I have had my Seagull S6 for 16 years and if anything, it has gotten better. It may be my biased ears, but it has gotten both clearer and louder.