The "(un)importance" of acoustic traits when amplifying?

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Daniel Grenier

I'm curious...

Where do you place the importance, or more to the point, the "un-importance" of top notch acoustic traits when plugging in - especially with non-mic amplification.

IOW, why buy an expensive Martin (or other hi-end) if you intend to plug in only? As long as the guitar has good playability, I think buying a basic guitar w/good pick up will produce as-good results regardless of its acoustic pedigree.

Agreed? Disagreed?

In general, I tend to agree. The point of a fine acoustic hinges on how the top moves air. A mic is responding to that, and a pickup is responding to the string vibration through the saddle. A Yamaha "Silent Guitar" shouldn't sound any different through a pickup, amp and speaker than a Yamaha dread with a similar pickup.

The problem with that argument is that it ignores that the top has to vibrate (be in motion) to move air. How much of that vibration is also "picked up" by the pickup?

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

That's why so many bigger name performers play lower end guitars on stage like Takamines or Ovations.

A U.S. built Ovation or Japanese built Takamine can easily cost $3K up to double that, so I would hardly call that "lower end". And these guitars tend to hold their own acoustically as well, often easily outshining equivalent priced Martin, Taylor, or Gibson. Sure they have low end models for entry level players, but those are not used by the big name performers.

[zhunter]

The factor that most guitar players miss is how much the perceived amplified sound they hear is influenced by the acoustic sound of the guitar that is mixed in with the amplified sound. Listen carefully and try turning up until the acoustic sound of the guitar is completely obscured by the amplified sound. You may be surprised at how loud the amplified sound has to be to truly obscure the acoustic sound. And that acoustic sound can have a big influence on the perceived amplified sound quality.

Isolate the amplified sound from the acoustic plus amplified mix and the sounds will get far more similar regardless of the acoustic properties of the instrument, depending to some extent on the nature and quality of the pickup and preamp.

And to the OP, when it was time for me to upgrade to a new gigging steel string, I opted for a less cost Yamaha that amplifies like a champ even if it is not acoustically on par with some other instruments I own.

hunter

[martingitdave]

I think there is some truth to the contention that a "stage" guitar need not be a high end guitar to get good results. Piezo based pickup systems don't reproduce all of the nuanced sounds that are common to higher end guitars.

For that matter, most of the higher end active piezo pickup systems, that sound the best, have more equipment than a high end guitar owner might like to see.

So, you end up with this dichotomy whereby the best guitars end up with some of the simplest pickup systems with the least number of features. Now, these systems work, and get the job done, but I don't think they faithfully reproduce the guitar. And, you'd likely need a lot of outboard gear to get the best results.

Moreover, many acoustic performers don't really want to hear their guitar "only louder." They want to hear something that emphasizes different frequencies and adds bottom end to fill up the sound.

Lastly, most of the players in this forum are not playing nightly gigs in bars trying to entertain people. They plug in occasionally. Most don't want the acoustic tone compromise associated with a less expensive stage guitar with a pickup system. Nor, do they want the acoustic tone compromise that an active multi source system imposes on a good acoustic guitar. Many would prefer to play their best guitar and compromise on the pickup based on what "stuff" they are willing to live with in the guitar, or carry outside the guitar, to get a "good enough" sound.

I've had several guitars in the $1000 range (Taylor and Yamaha to be specific) with good active pickups that produced equal or better plugged in results than I am getting now. I'm using the LR Baggs Lyric in my Martin guitars. It sounds amazing at soft folk club conversation levels. But, it's sort of a crap shoot connected to bigger PA systems at higher volumes. With the bigger PA systems, an outboard preamp/DI is needed. I also use the ES2 in my Taylor 12 string, which I consider the best compromise pickup for a player like me. It get's mic like results with negligible impact in acoustic tone. The Fishman F1 Aura Plus systems are in the same league with slightly more power and control and a bit of added weight. Unfortunately, Martin does not make an Adirondack topped herringbone with the F1 system.

I am not out there making a living with my music. And, I don't want to be forced to switch to stage guitars in accordance with where I am playing. I just want to play the ones I like the best. But, if you're a pro musician, you don't have luxury of debating these finer points. You've already picked your poison and you're making a living with it.

[zombywoof]

The Dearmond 210 pickups were the great equalizer. You could be playing a pre-War Martin D-28 or a Harmony Sovereign. Once you plugged into a Tweed Twin it did not really much matter.

[Alan Carruth]

This is one of those questions that's bigger than it seems.

Keep in mind that part of what makes a good guitar so useful is that every part of the box, and the air, is producing sound at some frequency. Generally speaking a pickup is only 'seeing' a part of that. It's like watching a ball game through a hole in the fence: with only one pickup you're missing something. If you want to hear 'the guitar amplified' then you'll need more than one pickup, with different sensitivities. That said, pickups get better all the time, and some, such as the multiple top transducers, can do quite a nice job.

In terms of feedback, the rule is that if the room can hear the guitar, the guitar can hear the room. If there's enough gain in the loop you'll get feedback from anything, but the louder the guitar is acoustically the more trouble you'll have. Usually the biggest problem comes from the 'main air' resonance, which goes away when there's no sound hole. That's why A/Es often leave that out. A heavier top helps, too, so hardwood or plywood can be beneficial.

It often seems to me that what the pickup hears is what's left over when the wood has used as much of the string energy as it can to produce sound acoustically. A guitar that has a nice, full acoustic tone can sound a bit 'thin' through the amp, for example. In a small room, where the acoustic sound is a bigger part of the mix, you might not notice that, but as you move up in venue size and amp gain it gets to be more of an issue. In the big gigs a guitar that sounds a bit 'thin' acoustically can come across better through the amp.

You'll need to think about the mix of things you're going to be doing, then. A guitar that is acoustically complex can give a more 'acoustic' sound through the amp if the pickup is carefully chosen and set up. If you will normally play smaller venues with just a bit of 'reinforcement' from the amp a good acoustic might be the best choice. The bigger the venues, and the more gain you'll use (is there a sax in the band?) the smaller and/or 'deader' the guitar will need to be to work out. It's a continuum, and you have to figure out where you will be in that space.

[The Kid!]

I think a good sounding guitar that plays great is the way to start. You can't amplify what isn't there. I use a dual source system with a mic that gives me some woodiness and airiness (are those even words??) so it makes a difference to me.

I run open mics, and hear lots of tinny sounding guitars. I don't know if it's the guitar or pickup, but there are times that there isn't much that I can do on the sound board to make it much better.

I know what I'm doing with EQ and sometimes it's simply the sound source or pickup.

[mickthemiller]

If I wanted a really good amplified guitar I'd buy a Telecaster.

[Mandobart]

This has proven the truth of the OP's premise to me:

Play a nice $5000 acoustic guitar, or better yet have a really good guitarist play it for you. Now have the same person play a decent $500 guitar for you. You will definitely hear differences. If you dont, congratulations! You just saved $4500!

Put the same temporary pickup (soundhole, piezo, whatever) on each. Play each guitar through the same good quality acoustic amp. The differences will not be near as clear or marked. Although I've installed pickups in nearly all my instruments, I'd much rather play unplugged or through a mic.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by Daniel Grenier

I'm curious...

Where do you place the importance, or more to the point, the "un-importance" of top notch acoustic traits when plugging in - especially with non-mic amplification.

IOW, why buy an expensive Martin (or other hi-end) if you intend to plug in only? As long as the guitar has good playability, I think buying a basic guitar w/good pick up will produce as-good results regardless of its acoustic pedigree.

Agreed? Disagreed?

To me true acoustic traits are mandatory when I plug in my Martin Authentic or Guild D-55.

I paid big bucks for guitars that sound this good; I want it to sound exactly the same when amplified.
That's why I paid $619 for my little DPA clip-on mini-condenser shotgun mic.

Pricey, but since it clips on I only need one for all my guitars; and there is no installation to pay for and my guitars remain unmolested.
Address feedback and EQ by simply repositioning it on its gooseneck, no reaching down for a knob on the floor.
It's an amazing tool.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...lip-for-guitar

Attachment 8426

[Shadowfox]

I think it's about pickup. Using a m1 baggs makes no difference. But let's you add effects.

The k&k trinity is the best I've heard with natural sound. The mixing in the goose mic while allowing the UST to cut feedback is a win win.

[jbeecham]

I remember hearing Eric Johnson in an interview saying that he uses a Maton similar to Tommy E for live performances. It is best at producing the sound he wants but does not sound as good unamplified as his Martin acoustic guitar. He said he could not get what he wanted trying to amplify his Martin acoustic guitar.

Jerry

[Pat in the hat]

I recently brought a ProSeries 6 Takamine. I currently have a couple of high end Taylor’s, and the TAK is now my favorite acoustic. Yes, it does have a large and heavy preamp system in it. But the sound when it is plugged in to a good amplifier is simply amazing. Much better than the latest version of Taylor’s amplification system. It is called the cool tube system and includes an EQ and two notch filters. The build quality is as good or better than any of the Martin’s Gibsons or Taylor’s I have experience with. And the sound unplugged is just as good also. They have been making guitars for 50 years now, so they have as much experience as anybody in the business. As with all brands of guitars, the high end series is the true measure of the brand. When you pay $3000 for a guitar, you usually get your moneys worth.

[BluesKing777]

I have recently bought a low to mid range Maton SRS808 cedar over Australian blackwood - if you like 00 size guitars and fingerpicking, I have not found much of a compromise! Cedar is great for me, acoustically. The Maton AP5-Pro pickup system is just the best.

Now, last Tuesday, I played a Maton 808 Tommy Emmanuel Personal, which is a fully hand made custom supposedly exactly like Tommy's. Wow! Tommy is not making many compromises, let me tell you!

Hear is Tommy Emmanuel talking about his Matons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a8OeqEVklM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vkwZmOqGg0




BluesKing777.

[semolinapilcher]

A wonderful, lightly-built acoustic that resonates for an hour is... more likely to feed back.