Mahogany Back and Rosewood Sides on a Banner J45?!

Regalord · #1 09-13-2023, 12:10 PM

I was listening to clips of vintage Banner J45s and I came across a really interesting clip. It instantly sounded a bit different (in a great way) than any of the other vintage Gibson clips I've heard. Then I looked closer and saw that it is described as having a hog back and rosewood sides. It's listed as a Southern Jumbo btw but seems to look more like a J-45. Wartime magic I guess?

Wondering how much do sides influence tone? I swear I hear a bit of an extra sizzle that I don't hear on most mahogany B&S guitars. Not sure if it's the rosewood though. Reason I ask is because if at any point in life I put together the cash to have someone like Kopp or Fairbanks build me something, whether it would be worth exploring this as an option.

Link here:
https://youtu.be/-3UdAJNksYM?si=WCqrFugJKg_cLyb7

jt1 · #2 09-13-2023, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regalord

I was listening to clips of vintage Banner J45s and I came across a really interesting clip. It instantly sounded a bit different (in a great way) than any of the other vintage Gibson clips I've heard. Then I looked closer and saw that it is described as having a hog back and rosewood sides. It's listed as a Southern Jumbo btw but seems to look more like a J-45. Wartime magic I guess?

It's a J-45, as you observed. Looks like a mahogany top, too.

I've not heard of a J-45 with mixed woods for back and sides, only an SJ. But it's possible. I'd need to see good pics of those sides, though.

As best I know, the side woods contribute little to tone.

davenumber2 · #3 09-13-2023, 01:22 PM

If they can't tell that the guitar is a J-45 and not an SJ then I don't think I trust them to correctly ID the side wood of a guitar. Great sounding example though.

Earl49 · #4 09-13-2023, 01:50 PM

IMHO the sides are the least contributor to sound. Many high end boutique guitars use laminated sides, so a different solid wood for sides should make little difference. I cannot speak to the sound via a YT video or the specifics of Gibson design and build. Ditto what Dave said above....

Regalord · #5 09-13-2023, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt1

It's a J-45, as you observed. Looks like a mahogany top, too.

I've not heard of a J-45 with mixed woods for back and sides, only an SJ. But it's possible. I'd need to see good pics of those sides, though.

As best I know, the side woods contribute little to tone.

I did a bit more digging and found an expired reverb listing with some pics. Seems like (according to them) this was in fact an SJ that had the fingerboard replaced to look like a 45. They don't call out the top wood. It looks to me like the top might be spruce. But curious if you or anyone else thinks it's hog after seeing the pics.

https://reverb.com/item/69358863-gib...-sunburst-1943

pagedr · #6 09-13-2023, 02:05 PM

Even if the fretboard were changed the rosette is still a J-45 style, not what you'd see on a Southern Jumbo. Interesting guitar.

sizemology · #7 09-13-2023, 02:57 PM

That oversized replacement bridge is an abomination.

Regalord · #8 09-13-2023, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sizemology

That oversized replacement bridge is an abomination.

If this truly was once an SJ there are quite a few abominations going on. That tone though.

guitarman68 · #9 09-14-2023, 03:37 PM

It's hard to come to conclusions sound wise through a YT video, and there are no detailed informations about repairs done on this guitar, especially the ones that will alter the tone of this instrument, like not original bridge plate, frets, ...
And yes, I can notice the extra sizzle that is new to me in J45s from the 1940s. I even owned a nice 1943 hog top Banner that definetily didn't have it - as did't my 1939 J-35 and 1948 J-50.

Some thoughts:
- the Neumann KM 184 microphones used in the vid are known for emphasizing the upper register. I used them in my studio for more than twenty years and still have one left if needed. But if I record acoustic guitar aiming for a close reproduction of the natural sound I use the old KM84 or Schoeps MK4.
- strings and pick can influence the recorded sound of the guitar dramatically. Could be that the player in the vid used light or extra light phosphor bronze combined with a thin pick, and there you are.

Conclusion:
I would not evaluate from this vid for a custom build by Kevin Kopp or Dale Fairbanks. Tell them about your suggestions, and they will offer you great options.

By the way: My Banner Gibson is gone, but my Kopp K-35 ist still here. Mr Kopp sure knows how to build a great Gibsonesque guitar

Osage · #10 09-14-2023, 04:04 PM

I know this actual guitar. It's a total basket case of old poorly done repairs. The sides are laminated Indian Rosewood and the back is solid Mahogany. I couldn't tell you what it started it's life as but I didn't think it sounded all that great in person. It appears to have been refinished since I last saw it.

To answer your question, the sides have little impact on the tone of the guitar.