Bob Weir's Real Deal

[jparis51]

Interesting new preamp pedal coming from Pigtronix, an unfortunately named but innovative and high quality guitar effects outfit. I've tried many loopers and still believe their Infinity Looper to be the best, it's expensive and complex but offers pristine sound quality, advanced MIDI sync and seamless quantization, features I need for my setup (I like playing with machines).

This new pedal isn't cheap either but the feature set is impressive enough that some folks might want to take a look at it. It's all analog, accepts single or dual sources and even provides phantom power for external mics. I just might have to try it and will report back if I do.

https://pigtronix.com/product/bob-weirs-real-deal/

[Slim]

Thanks for the heads up. This does interest me. I'd like to hear how it sounds with my K&K dual source and it does have a TRS input. I like the way this one would fit on a pedal board vs. the belt pack Trinity Pro I am currently using. Wonder if the 48v would fry the Trinity mic?

[varmonter]

They laughed pretty hard when they turn the
pedal off and all it does is feed back.
If you buy one let us all know what you think.

[Slim]

OK, after researching past threads on the Trinity Pro mic, I think 48V would fry the Trinity mic. I looks like the mic is set for 5v-9v.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by Slim

OK, after researching past threads on the Trinity Pro mic, I think 48V would fry the Trinity mic. I looks like the mic is set for 5v-9v.

Pretty sure it wouldn’t fry the mic, the mic just wouldn’t work. They built a protection circuit that doesn’t work with anything over like 11 volts or something

[Puerto Player]

What video reviews there are aren't all that good. Feedback, no feedback, OK I get that, but the "tone" in every video was so poorly recorded I haven't seen or heard it demo'd that would make me want one.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by Puerto Player

What video reviews there are aren't all that good. Feedback, no feedback, OK I get that, but the "tone" in every video was so poorly recorded I haven't seen or heard it demo'd that would make me want one.

This drives me crazy with so many gear reviews. And not just amateur reviews, professional companies with access to nice equipment still put out terrible promos and demos. If there are any gear manufacturers that want to send me gear in exchange for a well made thoughtful review of your product, hit me up. The world needs it haha.

[MrMulligans]

Hello - I use a K&K Dual Source as well. It sounds unreal when you replace the belt pack with the pedal. It has two inputs - 1 for a pure trs that would go to your K&K input on the guitar. The other is a phantom powered TRS that you can connect an external condenser to so that you can use an external mic, Piezo, and Transducers or internal mic and sum it all to a single mono 1/4 output. Plus amazing amounts of clean gain on tap and the extremely steep filtering removes feedback in any room and sweeps between the pickups. You also have a gain control for each pickup. Definitely worth checking out.

Originally Posted by Slim

Thanks for the heads up. This does interest me. I'd like to hear how it sounds with my K&K dual source and it does have a TRS input. I like the way this one would fit on a pedal board vs. the belt pack Trinity Pro I am currently using. Wonder if the 48v would fry the Trinity mic?

[Slim]

Originally Posted by MrMulligans

Hello - I use a K&K Dual Source as well. It sounds unreal when you replace the belt pack with the pedal. It has two inputs - 1 for a pure trs that would go to your K&K input on the guitar. The other is a phantom powered TRS that you can connect an external condenser to so that you can use an external mic, Piezo, and Transducers or internal mic and sum it all to a single mono 1/4 output. Plus amazing amounts of clean gain on tap and the extremely steep filtering removes feedback in any room and sweeps between the pickups. You also have a gain control for each pickup. Definitely worth checking out.

Thanks! But I don't think the pedal would pick up the mic in the channel with no phantom power and the channel with phantom provides too much voltage for the Trinity mic. Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

Tim

[Doug Young]

MrMulligans, does the TRS pickup input supply bias power for the internal mic on the ring?

A few things to note here:

The basic idea of this pedal seems to be the same as the Anthem, or the B-Band XOR system, a crossover that allows the lows to come from the pickup, and the highs from the internal mic. The main difference seems to be that the pigtronix pedal allows you to change the crossover frequency, while the Anthem is fixed at 250Hz (not sure about the B-band, I'd have to look that up). This also isn't unlike what you can do with a dual source preamp with good EQ - for example, with Felix, I use the high-pass filter on the mic channel to cut the highs, and could (tho I usually don't) reduce the highs from the pickup. People have been doing this for years (as apparently Bob Weir has...), so this pedal just captures that, and makes it nice and elegant and precise with the adjustable crossover. The adjustable crossover should allow you to tune the dual source in different guitars, offering more flexibility than the Anthem, which just lets you adjust the mic level, but not the crossover frequency ( tho it's not clear if you can adjust the level of the internal mic on the pigtronix, so it may be a tradeoff, level only on the Anthem, frequency only on the pigtronix)

There seems to be some confusion around the inputs. From what I can see, the 48 volt phantom applies to a separate input that is a TRS jack - that is just used so that it's not a huge XLR jack to keep the pedal small - to be used with a standard *external* mic. The pickup input can be mono or TRS to support an internal mic. They don't say whether it supplies bias power for an internal mic (hence my question to someone who apparently has one), and it's possible that Bob's internal mic setup is an active system that doesn't need power. I'd hope it provides 9 volts +/- for a passive internal electret. In any case, it's doesn't seem like its sending 48 volts to the electret, so you won't fry your silver bullet, etc.

This concept should sound good - it's how people have been dealing with dual source systems for years, tho what they seem to be touting is that you can play really loud. Not really appealing to me, but should be great for some people who need that. I agree all the demos sound pretty awful. There were a bunch of videos of Bob Weir demoing it in San Rafael a few weeks ago, also mostly sounding really bad, tho they seemed to be mostly cell phone videos. I don't entirely get the feedback thing - my guess is that with it off, the crossover is simply dis-engaged, so the mic is on with full bass response and full volume, which, yes, will feedback. But no one using an internal mic would do that, so it's kind of a PR stunt, again around the idea that it helps you play loud.

I do wish these manufacturers would be a little more detailed about specs - the whole area of phantom power vs bias power gets people confused all the time, and so few guitarists use dual source that things get very muddled fast, without a few more details.

[MrMulligans]

Doug Young - I definitely am not the most technical person but I shook my network to find out if the TRS input supply's bias power for the internal mic on the ring and will let you know what I find out.

I can answer some of the other statements though. You are correct that with the pedal in bypass the crossover is deactivated, but you still have control over the master volume and both pickup and microphone individually. If you plug through and set your individual pickup volumes to taste in a great room you could essentially never engage the crossover. I will tell you though the filters are so steep that engaging the crossover enhances my tone every time and it allows me to manipulate it in different rooms.

I 100% noticed tone and volume enhancements and overall control of the instrument more like an unplugged acoustic in a great room when using it in front of my studio monitors as well so definitely not just for volume.

I Play a Bedell with sinker redwood top and madagascar rosewood back and sides for reference...

Originally Posted by Doug Young

MrMulligans, does the TRS pickup input supply bias power for the internal mic on the ring?

A few things to note here:

The basic idea of this pedal seems to be the same as the Anthem, or the B-Band XOR system, a crossover that allows the lows to come from the pickup, and the highs from the internal mic. The main difference seems to be that the pigtronix pedal allows you to change the crossover frequency, while the Anthem is fixed at 250Hz (not sure about the B-band, I'd have to look that up). This also isn't unlike what you can do with a dual source preamp with good EQ - for example, with Felix, I use the high-pass filter on the mic channel to cut the highs, and could (tho I usually don't) reduce the highs from the pickup. People have been doing this for years (as apparently Bob Weir has...), so this pedal just captures that, and makes it nice and elegant and precise with the adjustable crossover. The adjustable crossover should allow you to tune the dual source in different guitars, offering more flexibility than the Anthem, which just lets you adjust the mic level, but not the crossover frequency ( tho it's not clear if you can adjust the level of the internal mic on the pigtronix, so it may be a tradeoff, level only on the Anthem, frequency only on the pigtronix)

There seems to be some confusion around the inputs. From what I can see, the 48 volt phantom applies to a separate input that is a TRS jack - that is just used so that it's not a huge XLR jack to keep the pedal small - to be used with a standard *external* mic. The pickup input can be mono or TRS to support an internal mic. They don't say whether it supplies bias power for an internal mic (hence my question to someone who apparently has one), and it's possible that Bob's internal mic setup is an active system that doesn't need power. I'd hope it provides 9 volts +/- for a passive internal electret. In any case, it's doesn't seem like its sending 48 volts to the electret, so you won't fry your silver bullet, etc.

This concept should sound good - it's how people have been dealing with dual source systems for years, tho what they seem to be touting is that you can play really loud. Not really appealing to me, but should be great for some people who need that. I agree all the demos sound pretty awful. There were a bunch of videos of Bob Weir demoing it in San Rafael a few weeks ago, also mostly sounding really bad, tho they seemed to be mostly cell phone videos. I don't entirely get the feedback thing - my guess is that with it off, the crossover is simply dis-engaged, so the mic is on with full bass response and full volume, which, yes, will feedback. But no one using an internal mic would do that, so it's kind of a PR stunt, again around the idea that it helps you play loud.

I do wish these manufacturers would be a little more detailed about specs - the whole area of phantom power vs bias power gets people confused all the time, and so few guitarists use dual source that things get very muddled fast, without a few more details.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by MrMulligans

Doug Young - I definitely am not the most technical person but I shook my network to find out if the TRS input supply's bias power for the internal mic on the ring and will let you know what I find out

Is your pickup system passive (no preamp onboard?) that would answer the question. if the mic works with a passive system, and a TRS cable from the guitar to the preamp, they must be providing power.

I'm still confused tho about the 2 mic inputs, tho based on your comments. I assumed the "mic" volume control affected the external mic that you can plug into the 2nd input, not the internal mic. Maybe it affects both? Seems like you'd want separate control. Or maybe I'm totally not understanding that 2nd input.

Anyway, I ordered one, I'm looking forward to playing around with it.

[Slim]

Doug,
Thanks for lending your expertise and boiling the confusion down to an easy to understand question.

Mr. M,
Looking forward to the answer considering you and I have the same dual source.

Appreciate the effort you guys are putting into this thread. Learning lots!

Tim

[MrMulligans]

Yes it is passive. Probably a great point hahahaha. Love to here your feedback when you get it.

The key to the inputs is that there is a dual source switch under the crossover. If you just plug a piezo in with a mono cable and have "dual Source" turned off - then it splits the lows to the "pickup" volume and the highs to the "mic" volume (or vice versa but the idea is the same)and you can fine tune between the two with just a single piezo.

Now when i plug in my passive system with piezo and transducers through a TRS cable and switch "Dual Source" on the pedal - my Piezo is sent to the "Pickup" and my transducers to the "microphone" knobs.

Here is where I would use an external mic through the input on the pedal labeled EXT MIC (TRS) -Ii would turn the phantom power on and plug in my external condenser microphone. When this is done the Transducers and Piezo are summed to the "Pickup" knob and the Condenser is sent to the "microphone" knob. Then everything is summed to a single external Mono 1/4" out.

The "volume" knob is just a master.

Maybe this helped more?

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Is your pickup system passive (no preamp onboard?) that would answer the question. if the mic works with a passive system, and a TRS cable from the guitar to the preamp, they must be providing power.

I'm still confused tho about the 2 mic inputs, tho based on your comments. I assumed the "mic" volume control affected the external mic that you can plug into the 2nd input, not the internal mic. Maybe it affects both? Seems like you'd want separate control. Or maybe I'm totally not understanding that 2nd input.

Anyway, I ordered one, I'm looking forward to playing around with it.

[Doug Young]

Thanks, that clarifies a lot.