Mahogany top: how about volume and headroom compared to to Sitka?

[Aaron Smith]

The problem is that our ears often hear brightness as loudness, especially when the guitar has to cut through a mix. Spruce topped guitars are often brighter than mahogany, so they may be percieved as being quieter. I’m not convinced that they actually are quieter, all other things equal (which they never are).

[hess]

I’ve never noticed much volume difference between my Martin j15 and my Martin j40. Plenty of headroom in both for even string snapping fingerstyle imo. Tone, sound, weight, trim and price ... are very different.

[Wade Hampton]

As a general rule of thumb, mahogany tops have headroom galore - it's difficult to overdrive a hardwood top, simply because it's denser, harder and heavier than a softwood top like spruce or cedar.

By the same token, mahogany tops tend to be quieter and perhaps not as projective as spruce tops. They also can have better tonal balance than spruce tops on a dreadnought - many spruce-topped dreadnoughts are overly bassy, but the same guitar with a mahogany top generally won't be, and as a result will work better on a microphone without crippling feedback.

But that same guitar, which mics and records like a dream, will probably struggle to be heard when there are a bunch of other guitars, banjos, mandolins and God knows what else playing at the same time. Nine out of ten mahogany-topped guitars will be quieter and less projective than the same backs and sides topped with spruce would be.

For those of you in the process of curling your lip to sneer at that last statement, because your own mahogany-topped guitar is loud enough to knock a school bus onto its side and cause the Mississippi River to change its course, please understand that I recognize that exceptions to the general rule exist: yes, there are SOME loud and projective mahogany-topped guitars.

But they're the exception, not the rule.

While I have owned a few mahogany- and sapele-topped guitars, I've never gigged much with those guitars because they don't have as wide a range of tonal colors as spruce tops can provide. I'm not the world's most brilliant improviser of dazzling lead lines, so in performance I vary the dynamics and tone colors a lot. It's just another way to be musically expressive.

But none of the mahogany-topped guitars I've owned have given me a wide enough selection of tone colors to work with, not for what I do, anyway.

So like anything else, there are some tonal gains and some tonal losses.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[SalFromChatham]

I have a Sitka top D18, and a mahogany top D15.

I also have a Sitka J50, and a J45 Mahogany top.

With both the Martins and Gibsons, the Sitka topped ones have more volume easily.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Mich Novice

My lowly AC240 is possibly TOO loud. I was astounded based on what I had read sbout hog tops.

I need to buy one of those. In my world there is no such thing as too loud.

[zombywoof]

I only own one - a 1942 Harmony H165 Stella. It is obviously ladder braced so has little in common with Martins and others. It has a 15 1/4" lower bout so slightly larger than an OM/000. While it has a nice bit o' chime to it, if there is one thing about this little sucker that gets my juices flowing is that it is the most percussive sounding instrument I own. Good volume but it blooms quickly and then gets out of the way. But that is how I like 'em.

[catdaddy]

I own a Martin J-15 and a Martin Custom D Mahogany. Both are large bodied (jumbo and dreadnaught respectively), and both share series 15 bracing and build features. The primary difference between the two is that the Custom D has a sitka top, while the J-15 has a mahogany top.

These guitars quite literally sound nothing alike. The J-15 has few overtones and a dominant fundamental with a sweet balanced tone from bass to treble. It has good volume, and responds well to digging-in with a pick or fingers to provide more headroom. It's a fine solo instrument, and can keep up as a rhythm instrument in an ensemble. The Custom D is more responsive to a lighter touch/attack, projects better with well defined overtones producing a chimy treble response, scooped mids and a punchy prominent bass. In an ensemble it will cut through easily as a rhythm instrument or for flatpicking single note leads.

Having both of these guitars provides me with a lot of versatility. Because of the difference in top woods both in terms of performance and color I think of them as my chocolate (J-15) and vanilla (Custom D) Martins.

[SalFromChatham]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

I own a Martin J-15 and a Martin Custom D Mahogany. Both are large bodied (jumbo and dreadnaught respectively), and both share series 15 bracing and build features. The primary difference between the two is that the Custom D has a sitka top, while the J-15 has a mahogany top.

These guitars quite literally sound nothing alike. The J-15 has few overtones and a dominant fundamental with a sweet balanced tone from bass to treble. It has good volume, and responds well to digging-in with a pick or fingers to provide more headroom. It's a fine solo instrument, and can keep up as a rhythm instrument in an ensemble. The Custom D is more responsive to a lighter touch/attack, projects better with well defined overtones producing a chimy treble response, scooped mids and a punchy prominent bass. In an ensemble it will cut through easily as a rhythm instrument or for flatpicking single note leads.

Having both of these guitars provides me with a lot of versatility. Because of the difference in top woods both in terms of performance and color I think of them as my chocolate (J-15) and vanilla (Custom D) Martins.

Now I want a J15 thanks

[Ed66]

I may have to just start sitting back on some threads and wait to "ditto" what Wade said above. He said what I would have but better and in more detail. The only direct comparison I have is between two solid mahogany b/s dreads. My Seagull Artist has a cedar top and I find it warmer, a little louder but not great to be strummed hard - which is fine I'm almost completely a finger picker. In contrast my Alvarez Masterworks dread has a mahogany top and I find it slightly quieter, a little dryer in tone but with fantastic tonal separation. It's great for more intimate settings and even my wife, who is not a guitar enthusiast, appreciates its tone. So, not a comparison to Sitka, but cedar in case anyone was wondering.

[J Patrick]

...what Wade said...that and my observation that ultimately it’s about the individual guitar.. I have only owned one all solid mahogany guitar a 34 Martin 00-17...it’s a guitar that I sold to a close friend and still play occasionally....it defies many of the generalizations that are often associated with all mahogany guitars...it has a soft relaxed tone that is not that loud and does not cut like many mahogany guitars do...doesn’t ring out...it has an exceptionally sweet syrupy voice and does not have the high headroom one associates with mahogany tops....an exception to the rule for sure but also an example of why it comes down to the individual instrument...

[Steel and wood]

Originally Posted by D-utim

My D-15 has less volume and brightness than any spruce but in a good way.

Yep, has its own charm but won't be as loud or bright as a spruce top guitar.

[BrunoBlack]

My opinion is based primarily on my 5-years owning/playing a Collings all-mahogany OM. This guitar has all the headroom, power and volume of Sitka-topped OM guitars that I’ve played. Of course it has a strong fundamental focus, but it is a little powerhouse, with a bit more warmth. I haven’t played enough other brands & builds to know if the attributes of this guitar are common among other all-mahogany guitars.

[Johan Madsen]

Thanks for your input guys, that was interesting, any experience with the Martin 00-15?

[Johan Madsen]

Originally Posted by Paddy1951

The self limiting and volume aspects of all mahogany guitars is frequently talked about and IMO, exaggerated.
Yes, all things being equal, a mahogany top will not produce as much volume as spruce. Often, things aren't equal.

The build of the guitar is the most important aspect of volume, IMO.

How much volume do you need? If you are doing Bluegrass, then all mahogany may not be your best choice. Vocal accompaniment? The guitar can be louder than you can sing.

Another consideration... there are trade-offs with most guitar comparisons and choices. It depends on what you want.

I have a 00-15 Martin, nearly 20 years old. It is a sweet sounding guitar and louder than you would expect. It is one of my favorites.

Let's say that though I do play fingerstyle, I also like to strum and play agressively, I like a guitar to sound clear and focused even when I really dig in in a hard way, without sounding overly boxy, or messy

[gr81dorn]

Curious - 00-15 because of the short scale and the slightly smaller size? I was right on the fence years ago and elected to do the 000-15 because they feel almost the same as far as the size of the box goes when it's being played, but the longer scale of the 000 was noticeably easier for me to play and made it seem bigger and louder, likely due to the slightly bigger bouts, too. Just curious if volume and headroom are a concern why you'd elect from the smaller of the small bodies? The 00 is great either way.