Warm treble strings

[srick]

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

Thank you so much for this extremely informative post. I really appreciate you as a moderator taking the time to share this with me......a new member and novice player. This truly is a wonderful, friendly and welcoming site.

I have just started experimenting with thicker picks (as of two days ago) and it has made a huge difference. The 1.14 orange Cat Tonuge is giving me a much warmer tone, very noticable.

Dave - by all means, have fun experimenting! I’ve only been playing for 12 years now (started at age 53) and for a good portion of that time, experimenting kept up my interest when my skills were not improving as quickly as I would have liked.

One aspect of the craft that I have loved is learning what is involved with setting up a guitar and tweaks to improve intonation and tone. Of course, that contradicts my last point, where I stress that it’s all about the player . We’re all looking for the Holy Grail !

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by pbla4024

Plain strings are not coated as far as I know.

Some are metallic flash coated (tin, nickel, anti-corrosion something or another).

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Some are metallic flash coated (tin, nickel, anti-corrosion something or another).

Rick, a correction...
Martin Titanium plain strings are cryogenically treated stainless steel, not carbon steel.
I can't tell any difference in tone or playability.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Rick, a correction...
Martin Titanium plain strings are cryogenically treated stainless steel, not carbon steel.
I can't tell any difference in tone or playability.

?
Like I posted above, stainless steel (Swedish usually) for plain strings.

What the heck cryogenically treated is supposed to do beats me.

[srick]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Rick, a correction...
Martin Titanium plain strings are cryogenically treated stainless steel, not carbon steel.
I can't tell any difference in tone or playability.

Darn... I use SCGCs which are only untreated steel... no wonder I can’t make my my playing sound like the Rev. Gary Davis!

[ljguitar]

Hi DUD

The build of the guitar is a given. But as a player if you are wanting to thicken…warm…mellow…fill-out the tone of your strings there are some things which you can try which may help.

Tone can be warmed/deadedned/made-less-treble-edged/mellowed by using a thicker pick, and/or rotating the pick away from the sharp point to one of the rounded corners. Also, if you play closer to the end of the fingerboard where it encounters the sound hole it mellows tone (playing close to the bridge makes tone edgy).

When I grab a pick it's a Tri-corner Wegan because there are no sharp tips (in fact they have a speed bevel cut on them), and it's a 1.2mm thickness at least.

You might not want to live in that mode, but it will help.

Also, playing all-flesh instead of nails if you are a finger styler produces a more full tone.

And thicker strings contribute to a less-high-edgy-tone. I play custom light strings on my main instrument (.011-.052) but I put a .012 as my first so the tone matches the .017 of the second string better (so it's not so thin when I play it).

Have fun sorting it out…

[DownUpDave]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

?
Like I posted above, stainless steel (Swedish usually) for plain strings.

What the heck cryogenically treated is supposed to do beats me.

You can wake them up in 200 years and there will be a cure for what ails them.

[DownUpDave]

@.... ljguitar that is some great advice and a lot of useful things to try. Thanks Larry

The thick pick makes a big difference for sure.

[Shadowfox]

I have found that John Pearse 80/20 are warmer as a set without losing their distinct sound.

That said, perhaps also look at the material used in your pick. I find Ultex picks to be more modern and separated, while the Primetones do warm up and blend more.

[zztush]

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

I have just started experimenting with thicker picks (as of two days ago) and it has made a huge difference. The 1.14 orange Cat Tonuge is giving me a much warmer tone, very noticable.

Hi, Dave! Long time no see!

Thumb picking like ukulele is much more warmer tone than thicker picks. I play fiddle tunes often by thumb on my guitars as well as ukuleles.

[DownUpDave]

Originally Posted by zztush

Hi, Dave! Long time no see!

Thumb picking like ukulele is much more warmer tone than thicker picks. I play fiddle tunes often by thumb on my guitars as well as ukuleles.

Hey ZZ, great to hear from you, we've missed you on Ukulele Underground.

Thanks for the tip, most of my issues of brightness were with strumming of chords. Thicker picks like Primetone 1.0 and 1.3, Ultex 1.0 and Cat Tongue 1.14 have made a big difference. When I finger pick I have no issues.....cause I have no nails. Flesh is good and warm.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by RoyBoy

The sweetest sounding trebles I've found are on GHS signature series LJ40TM. They are described on the package as "brass plain strings" and are indeed goldish in color. Granted, these are true medium gauge which means the E and B are medium gauge (0.013" and 0.017") which may be part of the fuller tone, that's why I like them. The low E is also medium gauge as this set was designed for DADGAD players

I just ordered a couple of sets. I have dadgad sets coming from Wyress and D'addario as well. I'll take notes and see which I like best.

[[J.K.]]

I'm going to resurrect this thread after a couple weeks of Google searches and bored experimentation with different strings. It seems like, for all of the mystical "mojo" speculation in old woods and manufacturing speculation, there's still a lot speculative and inconsistent talk about strings. What fascinates me most about string discussion, too, is the talk about brightness; as someone who primarily plays with my fingers, I find that, while the "brightness" of the wound strings, varies strongly from brand to brand and metal to metal, the consistent and strong overtones of the unwound strings are still the ones responsible for most "thin" or "harsh" end of the spectrum on many guitars.

I've been experimenting with a few treble strings that I've ordered individually, which is difficult to capture sometimes when recording and swapping out sets every couple days. I've also tried emailing a few manufacturers who claim to have "unique" treatments to their plain strings, but more often than not I either don't get a response, or they just say that all unwound strings are exactly the same (more on that in a bit). I was especially curious about some of the companies with seemingly lower tension strings of the same diameter (Newtone Heritage strings appeared to have a lower tension), but I'mm starting to get the impression that some published tensions aren't entirely accurate.

So far, I do feel as if some of the "cryogenically treated" strings have a different feel, but the tone is hard to distinguish due to the fact that I play fingerstyle, and there's a bit less consistency in attack compared to playing with a pick. Given that cryogenic treatment is intended to harden steel in tools, I can only imagine that gives the strings a stronger set of overtones.

That said, I only recently discovered that the idea of all companies sourcing their "piano/mandolin wire" strings from the same mills (apparently mostly in Sweden) isn't entirely true. For example, even though most of Pyramid's strings are noted as "plain steel" in their English specs, their German sites do distinguish it as "Silberstahl," which they don't describe as a plating. This wouldn't surprise me, as Austria and Germany do seem to take a little more interest in the alloys employed. I haven't tried a set, but they're on my list. I think Optima may use a similar steel, but I doubt it's very different from Pyramid's strings (save for the ridiculous Optima gold-plated strings).

I also tried a few of the "plated" strings, and the only ones I felt I could hear a difference on were the Thomastik bronze-plated strings, but those were already on my guitar and had already taken some abuse, so some objectivity is lost there. I also tried the Thomastik "Classic S" strings, which are flat wound on the high e and b strings. They certainly had a different tone beyond the thicker diameter, but the winding also imparted a bit of a scratchiness when plucked by my fingers, so they weren't contenders for my purposes. I also tried the JP Folk e and b strings, which are "nylon flat wound on a rope core," and they were markedly different, but also much thicker (.016 and .024 on the e and b strings respectively). Granted, part of that thickness is the thin nylon "tape" on them, and the other big difference is the "rope core" itself. They sounded quite nice, but the extreme difference in tension made them more of an academic curiosity than a practical alternative.

I still want to try out a couple other brands who use playing on their strings, but the process of restringing the guitar and tuning it, and then trying to record it accurately in my apartment but it's still a fairly hit and miss process subject to the subtle changes in microphone distance or my ability to find time without ambient noise filtering in. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear for tone, and often pull up a spectrogram to see if I can see any differences from one take to the next, but it's almost easier to get a feel for the difference while playing than try to discern it afterwards when I'm left to winder if perhaps I didn't pluck with a little more flesh or slightly closer to the bridge accidentally. Of course, all of this highlights to me how inane it is to obsess over something that can vary in terms of slight changes in technique, but there is something of a balance that I feel when playing that still makes me curious enough to give a few more strings a shot.



That's my long post. Curious to see if anyone else has any deeper insights on the subject of the strings themselves, apart from changing things like saddles and pins, etc...

[Martie]

Originally Posted by [J.K.]

I'm going to resurrect this thread after a couple weeks of Google searches and bored experimentation with different strings. It seems like, for all of the mystical "mojo" speculation in old woods and manufacturing speculation, there's still a lot speculative and inconsistent talk about strings. What fascinates me most about string discussion, too, is the talk about brightness; as someone who primarily plays with my fingers, I find that, while the "brightness" of the wound strings, varies strongly from brand to brand and metal to metal, the consistent and strong overtones of the unwound strings are still the ones responsible for most "thin" or "harsh" end of the spectrum on many guitars.

I've been experimenting with a few treble strings that I've ordered individually, which is difficult to capture sometimes when recording and swapping out sets every couple days. I've also tried emailing a few manufacturers who claim to have "unique" treatments to their plain strings, but more often than not I either don't get a response, or they just say that all unwound strings are exactly the same (more on that in a bit). I was especially curious about some of the companies with seemingly lower tension strings of the same diameter (Newtone Heritage strings appeared to have a lower tension), but I'mm starting to get the impression that some published tensions aren't entirely accurate.

So far, I do feel as if some of the "cryogenically treated" strings have a different feel, but the tone is hard to distinguish due to the fact that I play fingerstyle, and there's a bit less consistency in attack compared to playing with a pick. Given that cryogenic treatment is intended to harden steel in tools, I can only imagine that gives the strings a stronger set of overtones.

That said, I only recently discovered that the idea of all companies sourcing their "piano/mandolin wire" strings from the same mills (apparently mostly in Sweden) isn't entirely true. For example, even though most of Pyramid's strings are noted as "plain steel" in their English specs, their German sites do distinguish it as "Silberstahl," which they don't describe as a plating. This wouldn't surprise me, as Austria and Germany do seem to take a little more interest in the alloys employed. I haven't tried a set, but they're on my list. I think Optima may use a similar steel, but I doubt it's very different from Pyramid's strings (save for the ridiculous Optima gold-plated strings).

I also tried a few of the "plated" strings, and the only ones I felt I could hear a difference on were the Thomastik bronze-plated strings, but those were already on my guitar and had already taken some abuse, so some objectivity is lost there. I also tried the Thomastik "Classic S" strings, which are flat wound on the high e and b strings. They certainly had a different tone beyond the thicker diameter, but the winding also imparted a bit of a scratchiness when plucked by my fingers, so they weren't contenders for my purposes. I also tried the JP Folk e and b strings, which are "nylon flat wound on a rope core," and they were markedly different, but also much thicker (.016 and .024 on the e and b strings respectively). Granted, part of that thickness is the thin nylon "tape" on them, and the other big difference is the "rope core" itself. They sounded quite nice, but the extreme difference in tension made them more of an academic curiosity than a practical alternative.

I still want to try out a couple other brands who use playing on their strings, but the process of restringing the guitar and tuning it, and then trying to record it accurately in my apartment but it's still a fairly hit and miss process subject to the subtle changes in microphone distance or my ability to find time without ambient noise filtering in. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear for tone, and often pull up a spectrogram to see if I can see any differences from one take to the next, but it's almost easier to get a feel for the difference while playing than try to discern it afterwards when I'm left to winder if perhaps I didn't pluck with a little more flesh or slightly closer to the bridge accidentally. Of course, all of this highlights to me how inane it is to obsess over something that can vary in terms of slight changes in technique, but there is something of a balance that I feel when playing that still makes me curious enough to give a few more strings a shot.



That's my long post. Curious to see if anyone else has any deeper insights on the subject of the strings themselves, apart from changing things like saddles and pins, etc...

Great post!

Regarding the Thomastik John Pearse 'treble' strings: how did they compare to the Classic S counterparts? Were they as scratchy? And did you try the whole set? I'm curious about the tension, especially in relation to the lower strings.

Also, just to add, I've found my plain strings sound much better/fuller since I learned to 'ramp' my fingernails.

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by srick

Back in 2015, we had a remarkable go-round with Roger Siminoff, co-developer of Straight Up Strings and Santa Cruz Strings. It can be found here: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...ighlight=Plain

Treble strings are made from the same type of bar steel. The steel is drawn through a number of dies, each one making the wire thinner. Most all guitar strings have an anti-corrosion coating. Roger identifies the most common material being “Cobra-tec”

Differences in hardness, ductility and tensile strength could be imparted by the number of draw-down steps (ie. The number of dies used) and the speed at which the wire is drawn. Both of these processes will alter the grain structure of the steel.

I have followed these conversations extensively and can pretty much assure you that the difference in steel treble string properties is minimal. Note that even when you get a set of specialty metal strings like Ernie Ball Aluminum- Bronze or Martin Titaniums, the treble strings are the same steel piano wire that everyone else uses. Brass coatings, gold coatings, tin plating, etc. have minimal effect.

So for a warmer tone, step one would be to use a thicker string; step two, change your pick material\angle of attack and step three, make sure your nut slots are carefully filed and smoothed.

And now here’s the most important part of all. Listen carefully. Just about every one of your favorite artists has used, and just about every one of your favorite recordings have been created, with garden variety stings: D'Addario, Martin or the like. Artists have therir favorite gauges and sets, but all of this wonderful music has always depended on technique. Enjoy your experimenting, it’s a cheap bit of fun! But bottom line is, it has never been about the string material and likely not even about the guitar. The magic is in the musician.

Best,

Rick

Thanks for these details. For what it's worth, my experience matches what you have written here. Technique goes a long way and takes time to discover getting tonal nuances with steel strings - part of the adventure of playing the instrument. Short of that, going to a higher gauge on the trebles does make a difference in taming some unwanted brightness.

Best,
Jayne