Diminished seventh Scale Black Hole

[Mr. Jelly]

I think I'm officially demented now. I've taken to using dim7 scales when playing my country blues jazz rags.

How is a dim7 scale used in real life?

[charles Tauber]

Theoretically, there is no such thing defined as a "dim7 scale".

What notes are you talking about as an example of a diminished7 scale?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I think I'm officially demented now. I've taken to using dim7 scales when playing my country blues jazz rags.

How is a dim7 scale used in real life?

If you mean the whole-half dim scale, it's used as approach notes to the chord tones, because it's basically the dim7 arpeggio plus another one a half-step below. That's what makes it so versatile: it can be used on any dim7 anywhere, regardless of the chord's function, identity or key.

[Mr. Jelly]

I guess it would be called a diminished 7th arpeggio pattern. Sorry about using the term scale.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I guess it would be called a diminished 7th arpeggio pattern.

OK! Very useful pattern, at least on a dom7 chord (based on any chord tone except the root). Resolve any of its notes by half-step to a chord tone on the next chord.

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Sorry about using the term scale.

You will be punished.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by JonPR

You will be punished.

LOL

My analogy is that using sounds to make music is like using spices to cook with. It's not something I can just learn. I have to experience it in the right way at the right time to better understand. Otherwise it's to abstract for me to grasp. Thanks

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

LOL

My analogy is that using sounds to make music is like using spices to cook with. It's not something I can just learn. I have to experience it in the right way at the right time to better understand. Otherwise it's to abstract for me to grasp. Thanks

A better analogy is tasting some baked good that you like and saying, "Hmm, I like the taste of that: I wonder how it was made and with what ingredients." Artisan bread bakers, for example, know and understand "baker's formula". The "formula" is an understanding of what ingredients, and in what proportion, produce each type of bread. Once you know the formula - ingredients and proportions - one can make that style of bread.

Similarly, if you hear something and say, "Hmm, I like the sound of that", with basic theory, one can begin to understand what comprises that sound. In essence, the "musician's formula". For example, when one hears a I, IV, V song, of which there are many, one immediately knows what chords to play to accompany it, in any key, to repeat the underlying harmony and structure of that sound.

My point is that the basics are precisely something that can be learned, be it making bread or music. Both have basic, underlying theory that can be used to assist in producing a desired result.

Altering the spices introduces subtle changes in flavour adding to the already established structure or foundation. If the basic structure of the loaf isn't sound, subtly changing the flavour of the loaf doesn't make the loaf better. Ditto with music: the basics need to be there prior to introducing subtle changes to the mood or flavour.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

How is a dim7 scale used in real life?

Basically anyway you want. Tried and true way to go is listening a lot to things you like to get a better ear for things and copy and emulate. When you are coming up with something new on your own there can be so many potential ways to go that it pays to experiment quite a bit with different things. Over time you will amass a collection of things you have done before (picking patterns, progressions, figuring out varitations) that they will help jump start the next tune.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

LOL

My analogy is that using sounds to make music is like using spices to cook with. It's not something I can just learn. I have to experience it in the right way at the right time to better understand. Otherwise it's to abstract for me to grasp. Thanks

Right. Good analogy!
But the way you learn about spices is to add them and taste the result. You might go by a recipe book (to be safe), but you can only decide whether you want them or not (and which ones and how much) by tasting.
Same thing with music. You might read a theory book, but the judgement you make is by ear, by trial and error.

Personally I think of "spice" in music as chromaticism. The diatonic scale of the key and the chord tones are the main ingredients, which may well taste fine on their own. But often you want a little "edge", a little piquancy. Just as with spice, it might only take a little. You don't want to overdo it, or you swamp the flavour of the main ingredients.

How much you need to know about terminology is debatable. Obviously it can help - certainly if you are following a recipe (theory book) you want to know what the words refer to. But you don't get flavours from a recipe book, any more than you get sounds from a theory book. You have to try them yourself.