Dave's K&K Pickup Manifesto

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I'm finished. I exceeded the word count limit for the thread. So, I guess that's all he wrote folks!

Nice thesis, thanks Dave!

I think you have summed the things up very nicely. I had K&Ks installed with Tonedexter as the end use, but after reading various ‘stuff’, I have plugged direct. “Oh?” It must sound better up louder? ‘Dead duck’ was my first thought.
Tonedexter rules, ok!

A better sound MO YMMV etc etc... is the Maton AP5-Pro pickup system in most new Matons. I now have 3 Matons! Sen-sation-al! Place the bath plug in the soundhole (rubber feedback eliminator) and wind the sep vols for pickup and mic to full, or even 11, ala Tommy E, cut the mids with sweeping mid control, bass, treble, master....pretty cool. TE pluggs direct to a splitter box.

But they all cry, what if I want to play my Zippie 500? K&K or a Baggs Soundhole is easy. Harder is Sunrise and buffer box and EQ and preamp. (As I already have this, I just got a Dimarzio Black Angel to go in my OM and run it through the buffer etc. great, great sound but.....mag)

So a question for the Taylor players......I have read that the ES2 is more or less a K&K with preamp onboard. What is this like in the Tonedexter? (Interested in trying the Grand Pacific 717e, especially if it sounds good in TD!)


BluesKing777.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dirk_Z

Here is an example of a direct and dry recording.
K&K pure mini with just a bit of the mic from a Fishman Rare Earth blend.

www.polyphon-recording.de/k&k+mic2.zip

I don´t know how it will sound through a PA system or how big of a problem feedback will be.

I think that recording speaks for itself, great job, very natural.

I have the same PU combo. Whilst I would have preferred a Dimarzio Black Angel and K&K mic, the Fishman offers a convenient solution to provide an internal powered mic plus the option to mix the mag to mix with the Pure Mini.

Like you I find it just needs a tiny bit of mic in the mix to add that top end air and sparkle that the Pure Mini lacks.

[Petty1818]

I got my replacement HFN pickup yesterday so I will install it this weekend. I am confident I will be able to fix the string balance issue. I was getting some of the best tones with the HFN and Tonedexter pairing. I just blend in the slightest bit of TD wavemap (too much thins out the sound), but this has worked perfectly. I get the full, rich and warm tone of the HFN with the air and high end of the wavemap but without the issues of an actual internal mic. Down the road I might switch to the active HFN model with the tone and volume controls but for now the passive version is fine. Who knows, maybe it's even possible to add a passive volume/tone control to the passive HFN. I know Schatten does this with their passive mandolin pickups.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Nice thesis, thanks Dave!

I think you have summed the things up very nicely. I had K&Ks installed with Tonedexter as the end use, but after reading various ‘stuff’, I have plugged direct. “Oh?” It must sound better up louder? ‘Dead duck’ was my first thought.
Tonedexter rules, ok!

A better sound MO YMMV etc etc... is the Maton AP5-Pro pickup system in most new Matons. I now have 3 Matons! Sen-sation-al! Place the bath plug in the soundhole (rubber feedback eliminator) and wind the sep vols for pickup and mic to full, or even 11, ala Tommy E, cut the mids with sweeping mid control, bass, treble, master....pretty cool. TE pluggs direct to a splitter box.

But they all cry, what if I want to play my Zippie 500? K&K or a Baggs Soundhole is easy. Harder is Sunrise and buffer box and EQ and preamp. (As I already have this, I just got a Dimarzio Black Angel to go in my OM and run it through the buffer etc. great, great sound but.....mag)

So a question for the Taylor players......I have read that the ES2 is more or less a K&K with preamp onboard. What is this like in the Tonedexter? (Interested in trying the Grand Pacific 717e, especially if it sounds good in TD!)


BluesKing777.

I don't have any more Taylors with ES2. I like that pickup very much. It is essentially a K&K sound with a preamp. SpruceTop did some testing with ES2 and ToneDexter and was impressed, if I recall. PM him and ask? I'm interested in the new 717e myself. I had the chance to demo a pre production version that was great. However, the release videos of the final product didn't have a lot of low end. So, I'm waiting until I can play the production version.

[Dave L]

Years ago I had a K&K in a few guitars. However at the time I was in a full band and it just didn't work very well for a number of reasons.

I ran the gamut of pickups since. I recently came back to the K&K as my situation has drastically changed. I resisted the K&K because of the superglue. I have had so many disappointments over the years I didn't want to superglue another to my guitar.

But this time I am doing a duo. I also just got a Waterloo which is ultra light. I didn't want to install something that would take away from that. The K&K works well in this guitar. The Red Eye didn't sound very good. I ended up with an old Boss GE7 EQ. Scoop the mids a touch and the sound is excellent. I put the EQ into an XR16 board into my EV50. Really great sound. Is smoother than my D18 with a Dtar installed. Plus the K&K is cheap and easy to install.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Dave L

Years ago I had a K&K in a few guitars. However at the time I was in a full band and it just didn't work very well for a number of reasons.

I ran the gamut of pickups since. I recently came back to the K&K as my situation has drastically changed. I resisted the K&K because of the superglue. I have had so many disappointments over the years I didn't want to superglue another to my guitar.

But this time I am doing a duo. I also just got a Waterloo which is ultra light. I didn't want to install something that would take away from that. The K&K works well in this guitar. The Red Eye didn't sound very good. I ended up with an old Boss GE7 EQ. Scoop the mids a touch and the sound is excellent. I put the EQ into an XR16 board into my EV50. Really great sound. Is smoother than my D18 with a Dtar installed. Plus the K&K is cheap and easy to install.

Dave, your post and example use case are great. My biggest concern with the K&K is the low end resonance and propensity for feedback. This is common with any soundboard transducer. Basically, there is a volume threshold and limitation with respect to proximity to the loud speakers when working with the K&K. I seldom, if ever, bump up against that limitation. So, the K&K works for me. People who play in cramped quarters in loud bars might not be so lucky. I'm happy to see that your example validates my "manifesto."

Incidentally, James May, who invented the ToneDexter, also invented a K&k style pickup with a passive resonance cancellation circuit. It's nifty for people who want K&K simplicity with the added gain before feedback of some other pickup systems.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I got my replacement HFN pickup yesterday so I will install it this weekend. I am confident I will be able to fix the string balance issue. I was getting some of the best tones with the HFN and Tonedexter pairing. I just blend in the slightest bit of TD wavemap (too much thins out the sound), but this has worked perfectly. I get the full, rich and warm tone of the HFN with the air and high end of the wavemap but without the issues of an actual internal mic. Down the road I might switch to the active HFN model with the tone and volume controls but for now the passive version is fine. Who knows, maybe it's even possible to add a passive volume/tone control to the passive HFN. I know Schatten does this with their passive mandolin pickups.

Scott,

The HFN is one of those systems that has similar qualities to the Trance and Dazzo systems. They have a soundboard/bridgeplate connection with the added benefit of a 3 dimensional shape which is able to capture other interactions inside the guitar, below the bridgeplate, giving a sense of air. When people say that K&K sounds one dimensional, I always want to respond that it's 2 dimensional! :-) Whereas, the more complex elements like Trance and Dazzo are actually, literally, 3 dimensional.

My argument in favor of the K&K, when using the Tondexter, is that the 2 dimensional capture is more consistent when being processed by the software. In other words, it's a simple pickup that will let the software do the work in converting (relatively) simplistic bridgeplate vibrations into an external mic sound.

Your use case with a small blend of Tonedexter makes sense to me because the HFN is inherently more complex sounding than K&K. Mixing them both would seem prudent. I expect the same would be true with Dazzo.

Like all things pickup, you have to decide which signal chain you intend to use before making the system more complicated. For instance, if you intend to use a guitar with ToneDexter then I argue that a passive pickup is probably the best way to get the most from your guitar and the ToneDexter. If you want the ability to "plug and play" an equal percentage of the time, then complicating matters with an internal preamp is probably worth the effort.

[vindibona1]

Thanks Dave... A very timely post for me. I've been considering a K&K system and separately the Tonedexter. I've been getting by with a SD Woody but know the Tonedexter doesn't work well (or at all) with magnetic pickups (unless I've been misinformed)

I do have a LR Baggs Gigpro preamp which is similar to the K&K belt pack model. So that's what I run with currently.

HOWEVER... My concern is that when I get to a gig I plug into the house system for live amplification and streaming... and then the sound monkey messes up my sound or puts me so low in the mix I might as well not have shown up. Frustrating. And so with all the care and expense to get a really good system for really good guitars I often come away asking myself "what's the point of all the care.

Thanks again for the posting. Quite informative.

[HeyMikey]

Thank you! An excellent and timely post. I’m researching the options and you explained it very nicely.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I don't have any more Taylors with ES2. I like that pickup very much. It is essentially a K&K sound with a preamp. SpruceTop did some testing with ES2 and ToneDexter and was impressed, if I recall. PM him and ask? I'm interested in the new 717e myself. I had the chance to demo a pre production version that was great. However, the release videos of the final product didn't have a lot of low end. So, I'm waiting until I can play the production version.

Do tell us more about your 717 experience, Dave! The shop near me wants a deposit to order one and join the line....guess it will be a while before I try one off a wall.

I did a search on the ES2 with TD and the results seem generally good. By the way, I still have my Martin Retro D18 and the sound is good still but a bit ‘cardboard’...after the TD stuff and Maton stuff.


BluesKing777.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Thanks Dave... A very timely post for me. I've been considering a K&K system and separately the Tonedexter. I've been getting by with a SD Woody but know the Tonedexter doesn't work well (or at all) with magnetic pickups (unless I've been misinformed)

I do have a LR Baggs Gigpro preamp which is similar to the K&K belt pack model. So that's what I run with currently.

HOWEVER... My concern is that when I get to a gig I plug into the house system for live amplification and streaming... and then the sound monkey messes up my sound or puts me so low in the mix I might as well not have shown up. Frustrating. And so with all the care and expense to get a really good system for really good guitars I often come away asking myself "what's the point of all the care.

Thanks again for the posting. Quite informative.

Unfortunately, there isn’t much anyone can do when the sound person is uncooperative. Some folks will bring an acoustic amp to serve as their source and monitor and offer the sound person and DI line out. My suspisoon is that the result will be the same. The Gigpro preamp is a fine unit, but you may find the input impedance is too high for K&K resulting in an overly bassy sound.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Do tell us more about your 717 experience, Dave! The shop near me wants a deposit to order one and join the line....guess it will be a while before I try one off a wall.

I did a search on the ES2 with TD and the results seem generally good. By the way, I still have my Martin Retro D18 and the sound is good still but a bit ‘cardboard’...after the TD stuff and Maton stuff.


BluesKing777.

I thought the 717 pre production was a nice guitar and a bit of a departure for Taylor. But, I did not find it so compelling that I would replace a Martin with it. If I was a collector, I might consider one.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by HeyMikey

Thank you! An excellent and timely post. I’m researching the options and you explained it very nicely.

My pleasure.