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  #46  
Old 10-26-2021, 07:33 PM
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is online now
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Originally Posted by gr81dorn View Post
Literally the definition of "definition".

“Everything from small builders up to Collins” is a description, not a definition.

“Guitars built by companies with fewer than 100 employees” would be a definition.
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  #47  
Old 10-26-2021, 07:54 PM
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Terry Whipple builds "boutique" guitars at far too friendly prices. I have been thinking about one for a couple years. Whipple Creek Guitars
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  #48  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:01 PM
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is online now
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Originally Posted by SRL View Post

To me, "boutique" means that you want something made by one person, start to finish.
If that's the case, you need to find a "one man shop" (or one woman shop)—because as soon as they hire a second person, you can bet they're going to divide up tasks to capture those economic benefits of division of labor and specialization.

This is a clear definition. But I wonder, is the guitar whose parts are all made by the same chap better in some way?

Presumably this person is not working on all parts of the guitar at the same moment. He would have to finish a neck, or a brace, or a saddle, and set it aside to work on another piece of the guitar and later assemble them.

How is this different from having those parts made by various people? Is it in the assembly itself? How so?
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  #49  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:04 PM
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Ok. You're just being pedantic.

Feel free to go look up a range of working definitions and decide on what works for you.

The OP defined it contextually based on their values and considerations.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:34 PM
wguitar wguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by SRL View Post
Whether it's
  • Bourgeois (~400/yr)
  • Santa Cruz (~600/yr)
  • Collings (~1000/yr)
  • Breedlove (~2000/yr)
  • Larrivee (~6700/yr)

...they all make great guitars but they all use factory production techniques (you can find factory tours of most of them on YouTube, listen to them talk production methods on podcasts, read interviews, etc).

That is, one guy makes necks all day, one guy hammers in frets all day, one guy cuts bridges and fretboards all day, etc. It's just more efficient that way—division of labor, one of the oldest economic concepts known to mankind.

To me, "boutique" means that you want something made by one person, start to finish.
If that's the case, you need to find a "one man shop" (or one woman shop)—because as soon as they hire a second person, you can bet they're going to divide up tasks to capture those economic benefits of division of labor and specialization.

My choice for a small shop would probably be Goodall, a three-person family company making <100 guitars a year, but still well known and widely respected. Hard pressed to find one of their guitars under $4k used, but occasionally they do come up. They make both traditional and more modern designs.

Another good choice is Bob Thompson, also a one-person shop and a skilled builder. Sometimes you can find used guitars in the $3k range but most are $4k+.

As for sustainability, I think Breedlove has done a great job carving out that niche. Since 2017, they only use sustainably harvested wood (plantation, repurposed, natural treefalls, etc) for their Oregon-built models, and they actually lay out the rules clearly, specifying the material and national origin of every part of each guitar. Starting this summer (2021) they applied the same rules to all their import models as well. I am not aware of any other builder that has made that commitment to both sustainability and clear disclosure of sourcing.
Forgot definitions ... IMHO SRL's post offers the best overall perspective. I'm guessing the OP (like many of us have done) is seeking suggestions for "boutique-caliber" guitars vs. absolutely defined "boutique" guitars (just guessing -- the OP can speak for him/herself). Whatever the OP's thought process, I'd recommend for starters looking at the AGF classified and/or Reverb for used guitars in the $2,000 - $3,500 price range for a representative sampling of boutique and boutique-caliber guitars.

OP - enjoy the hunt ! Lots of GREAT guitars out there!

Cheers!
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  #51  
Old 10-26-2021, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
Ok. You're just being pedantic.



Feel free to go look up a range of working definitions and decide on what works for you.



The OP defined it contextually based on their values and considerations.


Well said^^^^^^^
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  #52  
Old 10-26-2021, 09:48 PM
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
Ok. You're just being pedantic.

Feel free to go look up a range of working definitions and decide on what works for you.

The OP defined it contextually based on their values and considerations.

“Boutique” is better left vague. I gotcha.
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  #53  
Old 10-26-2021, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rollypolly View Post
I feel like when I see boutique guitars here in the forum or on reverb the prices are all over the place, probably my lack of knowledge on the individual models’ own values. So if I were go after one of the more affordable small builders offerings, what would you recommend? Are there any that go for between 2-3k? I’m thinking 000 or OM. Thanks!
Figure out what you want in terms of voice and body style. Then do the work to find a good used example. With luck and efforts to watch the marketplace/classifieds/stores you can get a fine example for under $4K.

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  #54  
Old 10-26-2021, 10:29 PM
SRL SRL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Beamish View Post
This is a clear definition. But I wonder, is the guitar whose parts are all made by the same chap better in some way?
I struggle to say that it is, at least in theory. A solo luthier is a jack of all trades. Voicer of tops, shaper of necks, router of bindings, cutter of frets, sprayer of finishes, etc. for the hundreds of steps that go into making a guitar from start to finish (not to mention tuners and case, which most everyone outsources).

So, give me a guitar made by a old and very experienced luthier (Goodall and Thompson being my recommendations) who has built up mastery of all those aspects of luthiery.

Or if that's too costly, then give me a team of masters of each task, someone who's shaped ten thousand necks, another who's voiced ten thousand tops, etc. all overseen by a master of guitar design and construction, and so forth. Whether it's a $1,500 Larrivee or a $15,000 Bourgeois, they are factory guitars—just from very good factories.

All the above is the theory. In practice, a chain is as strong as it's weakest link, so if you get an apprentice for one task instead of a master, you get quality control problems.

Further, management may be temped by short term profits to hire unskilled, lower-wage workers or to lower quality standards, especially if the business is owned by distant corporate overlords (cough, Gibson) that care more about profit than guitars.

This, in my view, is where solo luthiers have an advantage. Their name is on the door, and they live and die by their reputation and word of mouth. They are much less likely to lower their standards and let a bad one slip out the door, and much more likely to eat the loss on the materials and labor and start over, lest that bad guitar turn into a torpedo that scuttles their livelihood.
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  #55  
Old 10-26-2021, 11:08 PM
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is online now
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Some assumptions there. But good stuff. I do like your high standards.

It should be said, the word “factory” simply means making. But yes, it connotes products cranked out impersonally for mass consumption by a line of time-clock punching dimwits flinging wood with no concern for the success of the company.

No, but I wonder if multiple masters in a small business are better at sharing a deep well of experience, and building on one another’s ideas, than say a recently bereaved loner with a worsening cough and diminishing strength.

That said, I like the single luthier criterion for “boutique.” It’s clear.
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  #56  
Old 10-26-2021, 11:30 PM
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Yes, clear but some strange exceptions.

For example, the Yamaha LL-56 and LS-56 guitars would be boutique, since they are, supposedly, made by one person. Yet few would consider Yamaha a boutique brand. 😄

Or, Goodall would not be boutique, because they have two builders (father and son). So it's a definition, but with some asterisks.
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  #57  
Old 10-27-2021, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollypolly View Post
I feel like when I see boutique guitars here in the forum or on reverb the prices are all over the place, probably my lack of knowledge on the individual models’ own values. So if I were go after one of the more affordable small builders offerings, what would you recommend? Are there any that go for between 2-3k? I’m thinking 000 or OM. Thanks!
Rather than pursue the interesting thread steal on what defines ‘boutique’, I’ll bend the OP's idea in a different direction.

What do you want in your next guitar? All the makers mentioned so far can make a great guitar and each will have some degree of individuality about what they produce. A Lowden isn’t a Goodall and a Goodall isn’t a Northwood. Playing the three side by side is the best way to hear the strengths of each maker.

So, try before you buy, as you mentioned in an earlier post. As many as you can and side by side if you can too. I see you are in Greensboro, so you are in reasonable distance of Sound Pure in Durham, and Dream Guitars in Asheville. SP has quite a few used acoustics in your price range and a bunch of new ones you can try at the same time to get a feel for each maker. DG is limited in your price range at the moment but they do get them in and they also have a massive range of other used guitars. Visiting with the genial Paul Heumiller and trying a bunch of guitars can be a very enjoyable and educational day.

You are right about used prices on the AGF being all over the place. I recently saw a 20+ year-old guitar in the Classifieds with an asking price pretty much the same as a readily available brand new one. So instead of the AGF, have a look at the websites of the shops mentioned above to get a better idea of prices (recognising that they typically include their commission as 20 – 25% of that price). Or, visit the SCGC website and see how they price all the variables in their custom build section; it is very helpful to understand what impact wood choice and various embellishments add to a new price, and part of those costs will be reflected in the used price. My personal rule of thumb is that a used guitar in great condition will sell at around 45-55% of its true new price via a private sale. That is a long term view and Covid may be upsetting it in the short term. And of course there are people that will ask more than this and probably people that will pay more too.

Last edited by colins; 10-27-2021 at 04:54 AM.
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  #58  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:17 AM
rollypolly rollypolly is offline
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Never meant for this to be a discussion about what defines boutique. I assumed everyone understands what I meant. But I guess I’m just a vague person. I don’t like clearly defined anything so I would include makers like Breedlove, especially their Oregon series, and possibly a unique model Larrivee if I could play them first.
In all honesty I was mainly thinking SCGC, collings, H&D, Bourgeois, Goodall, Thompson, all the most popular builders, as well as Webber, etc.
I was trying to get an idea of which models from those makers are the ones in my price range (used) because probably 75% of them are way over my budget.
I will also check out the smaller builders that folks have mentioned here - I appreciate the suggestions!
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  #59  
Old 10-27-2021, 09:53 AM
gr81dorn gr81dorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollypolly View Post
Never meant for this to be a discussion about what defines boutique. I assumed everyone understands what I meant.
You did everything right - you explained what you were looking for. You used a word "boutique" with a completely arbitrary meaning which you defined in your context and it is clear what you want. Many folks just want to argue what their version of that indefinable word is instead of work within the framework you clearly set. It happens on here and now we're so far in the weeds, it's hard to get the train back on the rails ;-)

I still think you should consider looking at Iris guitars as a really unmatched offering at the price point - small shop, top-shelf builders (typically called boutique by most standards) but they are making exceptionally affordable guitars that don't cut any corners for playability or sound. Really quite amazing what you get for $2000 or just a little over in most cases.
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  #60  
Old 10-27-2021, 10:14 AM
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Iris is good. I've bought and sold Bourgeois and Collings guitars for less than 3 grand.
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