A question about Martins, USTs, and tone

[nightchef]

As I struggle to decide how to electrify my new HD-28, I keep coming up against a conundrum.

I’m fairly sure I don’t want a soundhole pickup, mostly on aesthetic grounds, which leaves my choices as UST, SBT, internal mic, or some combination thereof.

Many knowledgeable people seem to sincerely believe that USTs harm tone. Yet Martin uses Fishman USTs in their “E” model guitars, including the HD-28E. It seems like there are three possible explanations of this:

1) The Martin folks don’t think USTs harm tone.
2) They do think USTs harm tone, but they assume that people who buy the “E” versions will be using them as dedicated stage guitars, and will use other guitars to get a more perfect acoustic tone for unamplified playing and for recording.
3) They do think USTs harm tone, but they don’t think enough of their market cares about the difference to outweigh other factors (perhaps USTs are easier to source and to design and manufacture around than other transducer types).

Which of these do people think is correct? Or if there’s another explanation, what is it?

[Petty1818]

All of the above to be honest. The thing is, not all UST's are the same. I feel as though more people hear a slight change with UST pickups that use the softer/braided material (Lr Baggs Element) vs. the harder material that the Fishman Matrix uses. So, there are probably a number of Martin employees who literally hear no changes.

I do think though that most companies realize that amplification is key. It's why Taylor puts the ES2 system into 98% of the guitars they make. In fact, it's hard to find a guitar without electronics.

I also think that companies know that there might be slight changes but also know that most musicians want to plug in, which is why many companies rely on the Lr Baggs Anthem.

I wouldn't overthink it, just get what you like.

[Cuki79]

Would you be able to remember how it sounded like before putting the UST?

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=368549

Even if you had an answer what would be the outcome? . You can try five HD-28 and five HD-28E. You might like one of the HD-28E better… but how much significant would be the difference?

You are in front of a rabbit hole. Trust me. Don’t go there. If you are not sure you need a pickup, don’t install one.

[Br1ck]

Cost too. And they realize at a certain price point, if a guitar makes noise when pluged in, that is plenty good. From running open mics, here is what I get, over and over.

Are you plugging in? I don't know. is that what this thingy is where my strap goes?

Do you have an onboard pre amp? What's that? I have a volume knob and a tone control though.

Changed the battery recently? Battery?

Then the countless K&K and other SBT users who have no pre amp. I'm told every K&K comes with instructions about needing a Pre. That's OK because most think a piezo mismatch sounds just fine. We finally bought one and don't even mention it. We just got tired of hearinh $4000 guitars sound crappy.

An undersaddle pickup has one valid function, they are feedback resistant, oh, and they have a lot of bass. They can be really nice paired with a mic.

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Would you be able to remember how it sounded like before putting the UST?

Good (and probably unanswerable) question.

I’ve had a UST in every acoustic I’ve owned since the mid-80s (a short list, mind you). I don’t recall hearing a difference when I installed a Fishman UST in my Guild D-50 about 25 years ago. But at the time, I was blissfully unaware of the possibility it could hurt the acoustic tone, so I wasn’t listening for it. When I installed an Anthem SL in my Eastman E10OM, I did think I heard a difference—a slight loss of openness and energy, particularly in the low end—though it was pretty subtle. But by that time, I was aware of the possibility the UST could hurt the tone, so I may very well have been a victim of auto-suggestion there.

You are in front of a rabbit hole. Trust me. Don’t go there. If you are not sure you need a pickup, don’t install one.

I’m about 80% sure I need a pickup, in the sense that I don’t want the range of gigs I might be able to do with the HD-28 to be constricted by the lack of one.

The other 20% goes like this: I bought the E10OM specifically to be my default performing guitar, especially for higher-volume gigs. I was willing to risk a slight tone hit when I installed the Anthem because it was imperative for that guitar to have a flexible, feedback-resistant pickup system. The Martin, OTOH, I bought specifically to be a tone beast. So I want to be somewhat finicky about preserving that tone. But there’s finicky, and then there’s stupid finicky.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by nightchef

3) They do think USTs harm tone, but they don’t think enough of their market cares about the difference to outweigh other factors (perhaps USTs are easier to source and to design and manufacture around than other transducer types).

This.

USTs are the cheapest transducers you can find to put in an instrument. A manufacturer selling a million instruments will look for the absolute cheapest part that will allow them to market as a value add. Business 101.

They also know that the vast majority of buyers will not care what pickup is in their guitar, if they ever plug in, and those folks will be happy with the tone they get.

Discussions like we have on AGF about pickup types are pretty disconnected from the majority experience of acoustic guitar owners.

Fine by me. It seems that anything worth doing well demands stepping outside of 'majority thought' and 'default pathways' at some point.

[phcorrigan]

I pulled the UST from my Martin Shenandoah D-2832 and replaced it with a JJB SBT. The acoustic sound improved dramatically. To be fair, this particular UST was Martin's first foray into electrifying their acoustic guitars, and it probably wasn't a great UST by today's standards.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I pulled the UST from my Martin Shenandoah D-2832 and replaced it with a JJB SBT. The acoustic sound improved dramatically. To be fair, this particular UST was Martin's first foray into electrifying their acoustic guitars, and it probably wasn't a great UST by today's standards.

Honestly, a lot of that change can come from a new saddle with a different action or a new saddle material. I don't think that's discussed enough here.

[rockabilly69]

I recorded mu HD28 before and after my UST install (Fishman Infinity System), and I heard no difference. And to be clear, I own a fairly nice project studio, and I'm in front of some seriously good microphones with my HD28, and as I said, I heard NO DIFFERENCE.

Here it is after the install on some fingerpicking...

[Peter Z]

The only time I had a problem was when I installed an Anthem SL in a Martin 000-1. There was a hole drilled already through the bridge with a too steep angle. The cord deflected the element pickup and the contact to the bridge was partially lost. The guitar sounded bad acustically and amplified. Took me a while to find out. And it never happened again, all other intallations were good.

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

The only time I had a problem was when I installed an Anthem SL in a Martin 000-1. There was a hole drilled already through the bridge with a too steep angle. The cord deflected the element pickup and the contact to the bridge was partially lost. The guitar sounded bad acustically and amplified. Took me a while to find out. And it never happened again, all other intallations were good.

Just to be sure I’m understanding you, you’re saying you’ve installed Anthem systems in other Martins and not experienced a loss of acoustic tone?

[Peter Z]

I installed Anthems in a Gibson Hummingbird and a Southern Jumbo. No loss. My SJ-200 and Guild D55 had Anthems installed by the factory and sound great both acoustically and amplified. I think the install is the reason why some people hear a degradation of sound and others don’t. Or the ears of some are better than mine.

I also installed Lyrics in my Martin D-18MD and the CEO-7. The Lyric is only the mic without the UST and cannot cause any problems therefore.
That might be worth a try if you don’t want to take the risk with the Anthem. My Lyrics sound as good as my Anthems. Of course without the option to dial in the UST in case of feedback. Quite a lot of players say, their Lyrics sound thin. Not here. That might depend on the guitar.
Hope that helps a tiny bit. Eventually you have to listen by yourself. Different instruments, installations and ears make it so complicated. Sadly, Boston is a few mile away from Vienna, otherwise you‘d be invited to play with my guitars. I mean you are invited anyway!

[JackB1]

This is a question that only you can answer. Most people don't hear a difference, but the few that do will insist that difference is huge. If you are going to play mostly plugged in anyway, then who cares if the unplugged tone is minimally impacted. I bet your pick and string selection have way more impact on your tone than if you have an pickup in there or not. If it's a big concern than go with a K&K or similar or a soundhole pickup that can be easily removed when not plugging in.

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

I installed Anthems in a Gibson Hummingbird and a Southern Jumbo. No loss. My SJ-200 and Guild D55 had Anthems installed by the factory and sound great both acoustically and amplified. I think the install is the reason why some people hear a degradation of sound and others don’t. Or the ears of some are better than mine.

I also installed Lyrics in my Martin D-18MD and the CEO-7. The Lyric is only the mic without the UST and cannot cause any problems therefore.
That might be worth a try if you don’t want to take the risk with the Anthem. My Lyrics sound as good as my Anthems. Of course without the option to dial in the UST in case of feedback. Quite a lot of players say, their Lyrics sound thin. Not here. That might depend on the guitar.
Hope that helps a tiny bit. Eventually you have to listen by yourself. Different instruments, installations and ears make it so complicated. Sadly, Boston is a few mile away from Vienna, otherwise you‘d be invited to play with my guitars. I mean you are invited anyway!

Thanks. Super helpful! (I would love to see Vienna someday.)

At the moment I’m leaning toward picking up a Baggs Voiceprint DI and then going for either a Lyric or a low-cost passive SBT (Schatten or K&K) for the Martin. (Since the Voiceprint has an input impedance of 2.2 MOhm, it should play reasonably well with the K&K, right?)

The reason I’m leaning toward the Voiceprint as opposed to ToneDexter is that I gather the former plays well with the Anthem SL, which I have in my Eastman. That way I could set up voices for both the Eastman and the Martin, and then bring either or both to any gig.

[cliff_the_stiff]

I am a big fan of the Seymore Duncan duo.
UST/ Soundhole mic combo.