Michael Hedges sound setup nearly complete ... but need help

[Rootwitch]

Hi everyone,

Over the last year, I've been working to get all the equipment needed to get something close to Michael Hedges amplified sound (the best I've heard). I've got two TC Electronic 1140s, a 1210, a PCM-81, and I'm in the process of getting Sunrise and Trace Audio Amulet pickups put in my guitar. It's been a long road, but I'm almost there!

Problem is ... given how old the rack equipment I'm using is, there's few little info available online as far as guides and advice. I've played around with the 1210 and can get some good sounds of it, but the 1140s are making me scratch my head so far. There's just so many options that it's almost overwhelming.

I'm hoping someone here might have some advice on how to shape the sound using all the stuff I've got, and maybe someone here has even gone through the same laborious process of getting all this stuff (most on Craigslist) and getting it all set up to make some beautiful music.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Rootwitch

Hi everyone,

Over the last year, I've been working to get all the equipment needed to get something close to Michael Hedges amplified sound (the best I've heard). I've got two TC Electronic 1140s, a 1210, a PCM-81, and I'm in the process of getting Sunrise and Trace Audio Amulet pickups put in my guitar. It's been a long road, but I'm almost there!

Problem is ... given how old the rack equipment I'm using is, there's few little info available online as far as guides and advice. I've played around with the 1210 and can get some good sounds of it, but the 1140s are making me scratch my head so far. There's just so many options that it's almost overwhelming.

I'm hoping someone here might have some advice on how to shape the sound using all the stuff I've got, and maybe someone here has even gone through the same laborious process of getting all this stuff (most on Craigslist) and getting it all set up to make some beautiful music.

Hi Rw…

First of all, Hello and welcome to the forum! Glad you joined and jumped in with a thread…

There's a forum member named Doug Young who is a pickup specialist. And I saw him referencing Michael Hedges amplified sound gear the other day.

If he doesn't see this and respond, I'd encourage you to private message him. He is one of our most appreciated members, and knowledgeable.

[sdelsolray]

I'm sure you've seen this webpage, which explains Michael's stage setup:

http://www.nomadland.com/Stage_Rig.htm

As to use of a parametric eq such as the TC 1140, simply trying, experimenting and learning is the best path. The venue and the remaining signal chain (power amp and speakers) will usually influence eq settings.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Rootwitch

Hi everyone,

Over the last year, I've been working to get all the equipment needed to get something close to Michael Hedges amplified sound (the best I've heard). I've got two TC Electronic 1140s, a 1210, a PCM-81, and I'm in the process of getting Sunrise and Trace Audio Amulet pickups put in my guitar. It's been a long road, but I'm almost there!

Problem is ... given how old the rack equipment I'm using is, there's few little info available online as far as guides and advice. I've played around with the 1210 and can get some good sounds of it, but the 1140s are making me scratch my head so far. There's just so many options that it's almost overwhelming.

I'm hoping someone here might have some advice on how to shape the sound using all the stuff I've got, and maybe someone here has even gone through the same laborious process of getting all this stuff (most on Craigslist) and getting it all set up to make some beautiful music.

Welcome to AGF - it is an amazing forum and you'll be right at home here with your quest. You're among fellow acoustic tone NERDS here.

Ok, Michael Hedges. Yes, wow - what an utterly iconic person, musician and tonal guru.

I second Larry's thought about Doug Young chiming in. He is our resident guru by a long shot. I am definitely a grasshopper in comparison, but I'll happily chirp in while waiting.

I think you're on the right track with the Trance and the Sunrise. You're ultimately looking for a FRAP style Soundboard Transducer (Trance or Dazzo) with a magnetic pickup and of course the Sunrise is Michael's exact mag pickup.

As it relates to your outboard gear, in my opinion, you can get as close as you like with modern preamp and effects units. I don't think you need to copy MH's set up there. I propose that if he was playing today, he'd be using the latest preamp and effects technology.

As unusual as it sounds, you might consider a Line 6 Helix to run your system. For something more traditional, a Grace 2 channel acoustic preamp and even a couple of strymon style pedals would probably get you very very close.

Unless you're really keen to replicate gear for another reason - nostalgia etc. Nothing wrong with that.

Hope you enjoy AGF - its a great community.

[Rootwitch]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I already have the equipment; it's just a matter of figuring out how to get the best sound out of the 1140s, 1210, and PCM81. I guess I'll just use the old tried-and-true method of fiddling with knobs for hours until I like what I hear!

[Doug Young]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Larry and Steve! Unfortunately, it sounds like the OP's problem is just figuring out what settings to use on the old gear he's got, once he has the basic signal flow connected as shown on nomadland. I've never seen any of those units in person, and have never seen any details at that level about Hedges' sound settings. There are some hints - he makes a few comments in the Sonority book, but that's about it as far as I know.

It's worth pointing out that gear has improved greatly over the years - just a wild guess, but I suspect that if Michael was still with us, he might still be using a Sunrise and probably have moved from Frap to Trance, but would likely have evolved to more modern electronics gear by now. Michael was pretty adventurous, I can't imagine he'd still be using no-longer-made 25 year old gear at this point. Nice exercise to try to reproduce his sound as a starting point, but I think you can do better these days.

[Rootwitch]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the tips! I agree that Michael would be using some new equipment now, although from what I've heard, the 1210 is hard to replace/duplicate. This is just kind of an experiment on my part, and a quest to get the same sound he achieved on, in particular, Oracle (where he was blending mics with the Trance+Sunrise setup, I believe).

[sellis624]

Hi Rootwitch,

In Rhythm, Sonority, Silence Michael repeatedly uses the term „correction“ when explaining the purpose of the 1140‘s. Essentially you‘re looking for (or listening for) humps to remove or deficiencies to boost. The easiest way I have found is when you hear something you don‘t like, start by boosting with a high Q and scanning through frequencies until the problem sound is worst. Then you have found the right frequency and can cut there to improve it.

The other purpose is to shape the Sunrise so that it supplies the low end without making the trebles sound too electric.

Good Luck!

-Steven

[Moxie]

Originally Posted by Rootwitch

Hi everyone,

Over the last year, I've been working to get all the equipment needed to get something close to Michael Hedges amplified sound (the best I've heard). I've got two TC Electronic 1140s, a 1210, a PCM-81, and I'm in the process of getting Sunrise and Trace Audio Amulet pickups put in my guitar. It's been a long road, but I'm almost there!

Problem is ... given how old the rack equipment I'm using is, there's few little info available online as far as guides and advice. I've played around with the 1210 and can get some good sounds of it, but the 1140s are making me scratch my head so far. There's just so many options that it's almost overwhelming.

I'm hoping someone here might have some advice on how to shape the sound using all the stuff I've got, and maybe someone here has even gone through the same laborious process of getting all this stuff (most on Craigslist) and getting it all set up to make some beautiful music.

Here's a photo of his rack from '95: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/995pd...mmboxuc6s&dl=0

[Jinder]

Hedges is the reason I use Sunrise pickups…an absolute avatar. I’ve never gone as far as to try to replicate his tone personally, but I’m super interested in how your project with this gear turns out. If you get the chance to document the quest and outcome via video I’d be riveted. Good luck!

[Cuki79]

Don't know if it helps but Doug Young once published a great video about EQing


Thanks again Doug for teaching us all

[wood nacho]

I would recommend shooting Andrew Gorny a message. He seems to have the ear, gear and know-how for getting closest to the Hedges sound. I believe he respond sfrequently to gear inquiries. @andrewgornymusic on instagram or his website https://www.andrewgorny.com/

[Rootwitch]

Originally Posted by Moxie

Here's a photo of his rack from '95: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/995pd...mmboxuc6s&dl=0

That's the clearest photo I've seen -- thank you!

Especially useful for the 1210 settings.

Trying to figure out the setup here

Top unit: for the vocal/flute mic on his helmet
Mid unit: FRAP and Sunrise together, with just 1140 modding the FRAP
Bottom unit: low-strung guitar and FRAP going into same 1210? then 1140 modding low-strung guitar

But this doesn't seem quite right . . .

The Sunrise outputs in stereo, so both channels should be going into the 1210.

And where's the 1140 for the FRAP?

EDIT: looking more closely at the Nomad description of the setup, this matches perfectly almost actually.

The Sunrise goes into channel 1 of the 1210, then ouputs in stereo
The low-strung guitar goes into channel of the 1210, then also outputs in stereo

But I'm still not seeing where the 1140 for the FRAP is . . .

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Don't know if it helps but Doug Young once published a great video about EQing


Thanks again Doug for teaching us all

Just a slight sidebar here? Cracks me up how so many youtubes like these we also find so often having a share of some fairly poor basic audio qualities.
Often, poor tone balances, intelligibility -not what it ought be, poor room conditions/resonances, mic placement/distance.
Not to 'over-rag on this particular fellow here, but kickers' being ones doing/knowing the audio/tech stuff.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by mixsit

Just a slight sidebar here? Cracks me up how so many youtubes like these we also find so often having a share of some fairly poor basic audio qualities.
Often, poor tone balances, intelligibility -not what it ought be, poor room conditions/resonances, mic placement/distance.
Not to 'over-rag on this particular fellow here, but kickers' being ones doing/knowing the audio/tech stuff.

"this particular fellow" is very respected on this forum.