people fumbling through life......

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rllink

It makes people feel smart to point out stupid things other people do and invoke the name of Darwin as if Darwin is going to legitimize them. But I've seen a lot of dead, dying, crippled, maimed, and just plain embarrassed people that thought they were smarter than they were when they got in over their head. At least stupid people have practice being stupid.

An old wise man (and many younger wise men and women since) once said that the only real sign of intelligence is being smart enough to know what you don’t know. People who think they know it all generally don’t know near as much as people who realize how little they know. The more you realize you don’t know, the fewer stupid things you’ll do thinking you know what you’re doing when you don’t, and the more you’ll want to learn about the stuff you don’t know. People who think they know everything are far more likely to do stupid thing because they obviously DON’T know lots of stuff. Which is compounded by them being less open to learn because they think they already know everything. You still have to be willing to try stuff you don’t know how to do (otherwise, how would you learn?), but you’re better off if you REALIZE you don’t know what you’re doing so you can take it slow and figure it out as you go, rather than rushing headlong into doing it wrong...

-Ray

[M19]

Per Glenn's story, I think that Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations?

[KevWind]

Couple of thoughts.
I agree none are immune from doing something foolish and it's easy to arm chair quarterback and be judgmental after the fact, and out of context.


But backing up a bit ...First there is a difference between stupid (lack of intelligence or common sense) and being ignorant (lack of knowledge or training) I agree in todays complex world all of us suffer ignorance in certain areas

BUT
I am thinking the real striking mishaps may happen when those two intermingle

Also I am going to float a question based on a theory that was forwarded years ago by some think tank or other.

Is it possible that in the modern era of increasingly highly advanced tech and the overall increasingly logistical ease of survival and functioning today, (and given the effect of unintended consequences that always seems to accompany progress.) Are we actually seeing the results of making common sense and even intelligence itself , less of requirement for existence ? And in the Darwin frame also giving rise to an increasing statistical percentage in the lack of it, through increasing procreation ?

[fazool]

Originally Posted by M19

Per Glenn's story, I think that Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations?

When hiring mechanical engineers, its hard to gauge a new graduate's actual mechanical aptitude. Farmers are some of the best there are because of their lifelong exposure and necessity to be mechanically active and inclined.

I talked to people who specifically look for farm kids to hire.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Is it possible that in the modern era of increasingly highly advanced tech and the overall increasingly logistical ease of survival and functioning today, Are we actually seeing the results of making common sense and even intelligence itself less of requirement for existence?

No question - and I'll add social skills as well.

I have a friend who's Son (now 27 or so) took his ACT and SAT and had over 200 colleges after him. He got a full ride at Purdue, double major in an engineering discipline and mathematics of some kind.

He's working third shift at a soap plant for 17.00 an hour because he never learned to actually speak to another human being. You get "yup", "nope" or "I don't know" out of him. He literally can't interview and therefore will likely never utilize his "intellect".

It's really quite sad.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Couple of thoughts.
Is it possible that in the modern era of increasingly highly advanced tech and the overall increasingly logistical ease of survival and functioning today, (and given the effect of unintended consequences that always seems to accompany progress.) Are we actually seeing the results of making common sense and even intelligence itself , less of requirement for existence ? And in the Darwin frame also giving rise to an increasing statistical percentage in the lack of it, through increasing procreation ?

I think this applies to modern medicine as well. Since the industrial revolution and increasingly with massive advances in medical science and information technology, survival of the fittest has expanded to survival of all but the least fit (obviously much more true in advanced nations than developing nations). I’m a perfect example. If I'd been born 100 years earlier, or even 50, there’s a good chance neither my mother or I would have survived childbirth, and if we had, the odds of me surviving childhood would have been low. But with medical advances, I got through some childhood conditions that likely would have killed me in earlier times, procreated (leading to two wonderful daughters who also might not have been “the fittest”, who are now procreating themselves), and am now thriving in my 60’s, hopefully have many good years left. I’m thankful for all of it. But for accident of the time and place of my birth, I likely wouldn’t have lived 10 years. And it continues - things that still could have killed me in the womb or in childhood in the ‘50s or ‘60s can be survived now. I see the upsides and the downsides of this progress, but on balance I can’t see it as anything but positive...

I realize the mental capacity to create all of these advances are part of “survival of the fittest”, so in that sense we’re fitter than we’ve ever been. But on a physical level, it’s likely allowed/caused us to regress. And in some ways, all of this vast intelligence has ironically also led to many of us being able to survive being dumber. Nonetheless, I never fall into believing things were “better” in some mythical past age, because I know I probably wouldn’t have survived in those times. And I can only see the world as a better place for my ability to survive and help create two of my very favorite people in the world.

-Ray

[rllink]

Originally Posted by raysachs

. Nonetheless, I never fall into believing things were “better” in some mythical past age, because I know I probably wouldn’t have survived in those times. And I can only see the world as a better place for my ability to survive and help create two of my very favorite people in the world.

-Ray

One thing about growing up on a farm, I never look back at the good old days with fondness.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by fazool

When hiring mechanical engineers, its hard to gauge a new graduate's actual mechanical aptitude. Farmers are some of the best there are because of their lifelong exposure and necessity to be mechanically active and inclined.

I talked to people who specifically look for farm kids to hire.

When I entered a career in manufacturing, in the mid-west, all the maintenance people were farm kids. They knew electricity and welding and generally had mechanical aptitudes. We could easily train them from that point. They were always interested and eager to show that they were capable. Believe me when I say I worked with some of the best craftsmen in the world. As a group they could make and build anything from stock material. And stand the results against the best. A bunch of crap heads that were great people. We were in the trenches together. Towards the end of my career there weren't anymore 'farm kids'. Nobody farms anymore. They are all corporate farms owned by families. The work is accomplished by contractors. The old family farms rent their land to the corporate farms. The only maintenance people we could find were from tech schools. They picked their careers from a list in the counselor's office in some high school. Their whole mentality is different.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by raysachs

I think this applies to modern medicine as well. Since the industrial revolution and increasingly with massive advances in medical science and information technology, survival of the fittest has expanded to survival of all but the least fit (obviously much more true in advanced nations than developing nations). I’m a perfect example. If I'd been born 100 years earlier, or even 50, there’s a good chance neither my mother or I would have survived childbirth, and if we had, the odds of me surviving childhood would have been low. But with medical advances, I got through some childhood conditions that likely would have killed me in earlier times, procreated (leading to two wonderful daughters who also might not have been “the fittest”, who are now procreating themselves). I’m thriving now in my 60’s, hopefully have many good years left, and I’m thankful for all of it. But for accident of the time and place of my birth, I likely wouldn’t have lived 10 years. And it continues - things that still could have killed me in the womb or in childhood in the ‘50s or ‘60s can be survived now. I see the upsides and the downsides of this progress, but on balance I can’t see it as anything but positive...

I realize the mental capacity to create all of these advances are part of “survival of the fittest”, so in that sense we’re fitter than we’ve ever been. But on a physical level, it’s likely allowed/caused us to regress. Nonetheless, I never fall into believing things were “better” in some mythical past age, because I know I probably wouldn’t have survived in those times. And I can only see the world as a better place for my ability to survive and help create two of my very favorite people in the world.

-Ray

Well yes advances in medicine certainly falls under the larger umbrella of advances in "tech" and while that certainly expands potential for there to be an increase in the number of perhaps the less physically fit to survive and procreate. But that is not what the think tank theory was proposing. It was specifically about common sense and critical thinking being less of survival requirement , and thus a decrease of those specific mental traits and that decrease growing as an overall percentage in the expanding population. And note it's a theoretical question, not a statement of fact.


"Nonetheless, I never fall into believing things were “better” in some mythical past age"
Totally agree I think that entire concept of some kind of "return to the good old days" is not only a specious notion and rose colored myth at best , but is often an excuse to justify a fear based perspective. And is forced to ignore the fundamental objective nature of change being the only constant.

[M19]

Originally Posted by M19

Per Glenn's story, I think that Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations?

In the top ten, but not the highest, in 2017 at least.

Occupations With High Fatal Injury Rates in 2017

Industry Fatality Rate (per 100,000)

Fishing 99.8

Logging 84.3

Aircraft Pilots & Flight Engineers 48.6

Roofers 45.2

Refuse & Recyclable Materials Collectors 35.0

Structural Iron & Steel Workers 33.4

Driver/Sales Workers & Truck Drivers 26.8

Farmers, Ranchers & Other Ag. Mgrs. 24.0

Supervisors of Landscaping, Lawn & Grounds 21.0

Elec. Power Line Installers & Repairers 18.7

[Dru Edwards]

The ocean can be so beautiful and so angry. We lost 6 fishermen here in a storm just before Christmas. It took a month before the sunken boat was found and it was just 1.5 miles off shore.

Originally Posted by M19

In the top ten, but not the highest, in 2017 at least.

Occupations With High Fatal Injury Rates in 2017

Industry Fatality Rate (per 100,000)

Fishing 99.8

Logging 84.3

Aircraft Pilots & Flight Engineers 48.6

Roofers 45.2

Refuse & Recyclable Materials Collectors 35.0

Structural Iron & Steel Workers 33.4

Driver/Sales Workers & Truck Drivers 26.8

Farmers, Ranchers & Other Ag. Mgrs. 24.0

Supervisors of Landscaping, Lawn & Grounds 21.0

Elec. Power Line Installers & Repairers 18.7

[Scott O]

Originally Posted by M19

In the top ten, but not the highest, in 2017 at least.

Occupations With High Fatal Injury Rates in 2017

Industry Fatality Rate (per 100,000)

Fishing 99.8

Logging 84.3

Aircraft Pilots & Flight Engineers 48.6

Roofers 45.2

Refuse & Recyclable Materials Collectors 35.0

Structural Iron & Steel Workers 33.4

Driver/Sales Workers & Truck Drivers 26.8

Farmers, Ranchers & Other Ag. Mgrs. 24.0

Supervisors of Landscaping, Lawn & Grounds 21.0

Elec. Power Line Installers & Repairers 18.7

Landscape Supervisors? Cause of death, mutiny?

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by M19

In the top ten, but not the highest, in 2017 at least.

Occupations With High Fatal Injury Rates in 2017

Industry Fatality Rate (per 100,000)

Fishing 99.8

Logging 84.3

Aircraft Pilots & Flight Engineers 48.6

Roofers 45.2

Refuse & Recyclable Materials Collectors 35.0

Structural Iron & Steel Workers 33.4

Driver/Sales Workers & Truck Drivers 26.8

Farmers, Ranchers & Other Ag. Mgrs. 24.0

Supervisors of Landscaping, Lawn & Grounds 21.0

Elec. Power Line Installers & Repairers 18.7

Hi Marty,

Yes, farming can be dangerous because they are exposed to so many things. I liked working with dairy farmers. I was 30 years old back then and they were all giving me a hard time about not knowing anything, but actually as I worked with them we gained a lot of mutual respect for each other.

I live in an area of logging and fishing today, two areas that are even more dangerous than farming. A lot of the people I worked with in our plant came from logging and fishing, so again I had a lot of interesting people to work with very diverse backgrounds who always had good feedback to give me on problems I had to solve. I listened to them, and they respected me for giving them credit and incorporating their ideas.

- Glenn

[TBman]

There's a few basic things that you would think people would know - combustion and gravity for instance - you don't light a match to see how much gas is at the bottom of the gas can; If you put that hammer on the top of the folding ladder while you fix one of the legs, it will fall and hit you in the head.

Mostly I have found that common sense can be environment specific. An apartment dweller won't know much about lawn mowers, but knows which elevators to avoid and knows not to get in one during a storm, etc. While a person who grew up in suburbia might know a bit more about working with hand and power tools.

But, as a wise man once said "You can't fix stupid."

[M19]

Originally Posted by Scott O

Landscape Supervisors? Cause of death, mutiny?

Bet the number one was falls:

10. First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers
• 2018 fatal injury rate: 20.2 per 100,000 workers
• Total injuries in 2018: 48 fatal injuries, 1,990 nonfatal injuries
• Most common cause of fatal accident: Falls, slips, trips
• Median annual wage: $48,220