A couple of beginner fingerstyle questions

[ddn1661]

Hello! New on the forum and first post
In my late 50's and self-learning fingerstyle, I do a lot of studying but don't have much time for actual practicing unfortunately.
Most of what I see regarding learning is memorizing fingerstyle patterns, "learn these few patterns and you can play 1000's of songs" sort of thing.
I kind of doubt that, but just how much time should one spend on learning set patterns?
I know it's vital to get the thumb and fingers doing their own thing so maybe that's the idea behind the patterns.

Second thing is, quite a few of the fingerstyle tabs i'm finding online have no chords shown above the measures.
From what I understand is in fingerstyle the "chords" aren't EXACTLY "chords" correct?
One must figure out from the notes what "chord shapes" are being used in each measure?
That idea REALLY threw me off from starting to learn acoustic basic strumming to fingerstyle, the idea of "chord shapes" being just that apparently, so you can't just memorize chords and have it work.
I bought a chord stamp and ink pad to help with actually stamping the sheet music and drawing in what chord "shape" is being played (turns out you have to learn to read sheet music and not just tabs as well, sheez!)
And here I was thinking this would be easy.....

[cliff_the_stiff]

“Fingerstyle “ can mean a range of different styles. for folk
I would start by playing 4/4 songs you already know from strumming with your fingers. Arpeggiate the notes. Make an effort to keep the beat with your thumb on 4 beats to the measure. Don’t try learning techniques and new shapes, start with technique using shapes you are familiar with so that you can learn one thing at a time.

Trying to go from normal playing to “contemporary fingerstyle “ defined as the alternative tuning to suit the notes and all of the tapping and beating on a guitar like Andy McKey, I think is a much longer journey and you have to seem to be more willing to beat up your instrument than I am.

[Alex&r]

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Hello! New on the forum and first post
In my late 50's and self-learning fingerstyle, I do a lot of studying but don't have much time for actual practicing unfortunately.
Most of what I see regarding learning is memorizing fingerstyle patterns, "learn these few patterns and you can play 1000's of songs" sort of thing.
I kind of doubt that, but just how much time should one spend on learning set patterns?
I know it's vital to get the thumb and fingers doing their own thing so maybe that's the idea behind the patterns.

Second thing is, quite a few of the fingerstyle tabs i'm finding online have no chords shown above the measures.
From what I understand is in fingerstyle the "chords" aren't EXACTLY "chords" correct?
One must figure out from the notes what "chord shapes" are being used in each measure?
That idea REALLY threw me off from starting to learn acoustic basic strumming to fingerstyle, the idea of "chord shapes" being just that apparently, so you can't just memorize chords and have it work.
I bought a chord stamp and ink pad to help with actually stamping the sheet music and drawing in what chord "shape" is being played (turns out you have to learn to read sheet music and not just tabs as well, sheez!)
And here I was thinking this would be easy.....

Hi there,
I think people learn in different ways but I can say what's been working for me since making an effort to play 'fingerstyle'.
I like to find a youtube video for a tune I want to learn presented by a good teacher. I don't get on quite so fast when the teacher goes through note by note as i find this can miss important rhythmic aspects and I find being shown something far easier than trying to follow tablature for eg.
I was blown away by a couple of videos by Derek Gripper ie 'performing the music of Mali for beginners' and the subsequent 'for intermediate'. The teaching style whereby he breaks each physical action into fragments and you practice each fragment really works for me. So for eg he gets you practising the right hand only without fretting the notes.
The tune Jarabi is his interptetation of West African harp music for guitar and it's great fun to improvise with once you get a couple of the patterns in your fingers and it's an eye opener in terms of exploring the roots of American blues. https://youtu.be/nxn49TjFCxE
Another teacher/lesson I really enjoyed was Rolly Brown playing the Bert Jansch song One for Joe. https://youtu.be/V--Rm8fMMoU
All the best

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff

“Fingerstyle “ can mean a range of different styles. for folk
I would start by playing 4/4 songs you already know from strumming with your fingers. Arpeggiate the notes. Make an effort to keep the beat with your thumb on 4 beats to the measure. Don’t try learning techniques and new shapes, start with technique using shapes you are familiar with so that you can learn one thing at a time.

Trying to go from normal playing to “contemporary fingerstyle “ defined as the alternative tuning to suit the notes and all of the tapping and beating on a guitar like Andy McKey, I think is a much longer journey and you have to seem to be more willing to beat up your instrument than I am.

I think you're conflating two separate things there. There are loads of "contemporary" fingerstyle players who don't do the banging on the guitar stuff. From my listening over the years, that particular tapping thing is a very small minority of alternate-tuning fingerstyle guitar performances. It's not my thing either but I find plenty to listen to without the bump-bump-bump rhythm parts.

To ddn661,

Could you clarify with some examples of the type of playing you're wanting to do?

Are you doing blues/folk songs in standard (or occasionally drop-D) tuning? If you're wanting to learn alternating bass or similar chord-based styles then yeah, one way or another you'll get a repertoire of chord shapes and fundamental right-hand patterns built into your muscle memory which can then be mixed and matched to use with a wide variety of songs.

But there's a huge area of more classical-guitar-influenced playing where you may have four or five different tunings (each with its own library of chord shapes) but you really have to figure out bespoke fingerings for each passage on each song to do the really fancy stuff. That style is what I spent some time a decade ago trying to learn (with mixed results). It's slow going for a beginner or near beginner because you are just combining standard licks and rhythm patterns over blues/folk chord changes.

P.S. And then there are people who play in a style much like "flatpicking" fiddle tunes and such except they use their fingers and/or nails rather than a pick. IMO it's probably too confusing to call that "fingerstyle" but I've heard it called that.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Hello! New on the forum and first post
In my late 50's and self-learning fingerstyle, I do a lot of studying but don't have much time for actual practicing unfortunately.
Most of what I see regarding learning is memorizing fingerstyle patterns, "learn these few patterns and you can play 1000's of songs" sort of thing.

That's true if you just want to learn how to accompany yourself on songs in a more interesting way than strumming chords. IOW, you still have to sing! (or accompany someone else singing)
In that case, there really are only a small handful of generic patterns for the alternating bass style (folksy/country/bluesy), and various ways of arpeggiating chords (a more pseudo-classical style) on top of that.

For instrumental playing, although alternating bass patterns and techniques play their part (eg in beginner tunes like Freight Train or Windy And Warm), it's more about learning individual tunes, as you would if you were studying classical guitar.

Originally Posted by ddn1661

I know it's vital to get the thumb and fingers doing their own thing so maybe that's the idea behind the patterns.

Yes, but there's a common myth about the "independent thumb". In alternating bass style, the thumb does do different things from the fingers - it keeps a steady beat while the fingers arpeggiate or play melodies - it doesn't help to think of the jobs as separate. Patterns (the kind used as song accompaninents) need to be learned as whole things, in which thumb and fingers interlock. You practice thumb and fingers together - as slow as you need to at first.

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Second thing is, quite a few of the fingerstyle tabs i'm finding online have no chords shown above the measures.
From what I understand is in fingerstyle the "chords" aren't EXACTLY "chords" correct?

Well, chords are usually implied, but you don't need to know what they are. You'll find your fingers often assuming familiar shapes, but you're rarely playing all the strings, so you often don't have to fret as many notes per chord.

Originally Posted by ddn1661

One must figure out from the notes what "chord shapes" are being used in each measure?

Only if you want to, if you think it will help you understand what's going on. (IMO it would, because I'm interested in that kind of thing...)

Originally Posted by ddn1661

That idea REALLY threw me off from starting to learn acoustic basic strumming to fingerstyle, the idea of "chord shapes" being just that apparently, so you can't just memorize chords and have it work.
I bought a chord stamp and ink pad to help with actually stamping the sheet music and drawing in what chord "shape" is being played (turns out you have to learn to read sheet music and not just tabs as well, sheez!)
And here I was thinking this would be easy.....

There is no need to read sheet music, unless (a) the tab doesn't show rhythms, or (b) there's no recording you can listen to. (Personally I like to see sheet music, but then I can already read it. )

Seeing the chord shapes implied by the finger patterns certainly helps though (IMO). Rather than looking at tab numbers and placing each finger, you can see "Oh that's a C chord!" But then sometimes the notes include non-chord tones, so sometimes thinking in chord shapes means you miss some of the subtleties.

[Doug Young]

A few examples of the kinds of music you want to play might help. Pattern playing is primarily for accompaniment, just finger chords as usual, then apply various patterns - so I'm not sure what you mean by chords aren't exactly chords. You can indeed play, say C, F, G and play typical folk fingerpicking patterns over them. And there are lots of patterns, but after a while they tend to blur together.

If you want to play instrumentally, like say, Tommy Emmanuel, or Andy McKee, then chords still play a role, but your goal is to play a melody with accompaniment. With that, you can't just apply a set pattern, you have to go where the melody and the accompanying parts go to sound right. Sometimes those will fall nicely under chord shapes, sometimes they won't. That's the same as any instrument - if you played saxophone, you couldn't just play any song by repeating some pattern, you have to play the notes of the melody.

This month's Acoustic Guitar has a pretty lengthy article I wrote on Fingerstyle Guitar. I don't see it online yet, but if you come across an issue, you might find it helpful. Happy Traum on the cover. It's a sort of wide ranging survey of what it is, who does it, different styles, etc, along with musical examples. The video demo for the examples is up on you tube, I see, so that might help you see if the article would be useful:



Hope that helps

[ddn1661]

Thanks for all the replies!
I started out wanting to learn acoustic guitar by ordering the Learn & Master Guitar set by Legacy, not knowing anything about different types of playing.
Since I like 70's to 90's pop and rock, while beginning the lessons I would surf to find tabs that I could eventually work towards playing.
I bought "Everything I Own" by Bread on sheet music by Gabriella Quevedo since I could possibly make an attempt at singing it, not knowing that it was a fingerstyle composition (or even what fingerstyle was)
Then I watched her video playing it and thought wow, I don't have to worry about trying to sing with this "fingerstyle" thing (of course it's much more difficult to learn as I rapidly found out)
There's a guy called lonelypicker on Youtube that has some easier popular arrangements and now i'm trying to learn Abba's "The Winner Takes it All"

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Thanks for all the replies!
I started out wanting to learn acoustic guitar by ordering the Learn & Master Guitar set by Legacy, not knowing anything about different types of playing.
Since I like 70's to 90's pop and rock, while beginning the lessons I would surf to find tabs that I could eventually work towards playing.
I bought "Everything I Own" by Bread on sheet music by Gabriella Quevedo since I could possibly make an attempt at singing it, not knowing that it was a fingerstyle composition (or even what fingerstyle was)
Then I watched her video playing it and thought wow, I don't have to worry about trying to sing with this "fingerstyle" thing (of course it's much more difficult to learn as I rapidly found out)
There's a guy called lonelypicker on Youtube that has some easier popular arrangements and now i'm trying to learn Abba's "The Winner Takes it All"

OK, so you're trying to play instrumentals. Patterns don't usually play all that much of a role in that, tho they are useful for developing technique, and some very basic tunes may follow some pattern. But your first priority is to play the melody. Then be able to play a bass line along with that. Then whatever else you can add in. Sometimes you may be able to fit a pattern under the melody, but often not. But learning lots of fingerpicking patterns will give you the flexibility and underlying technique to adapt to whatever a tune requires. Personally, I'd just start learnng lots of tunes. Find ones you like so you're motivated to figure them out and get them under your fingers. There is tons and tons of tab out there for all kinds of fingerstyle arrangements.

[rick-slo]

If you learn how to read guitar tab and to some extent (at least) standard notation (for timing values) a big world tab + standard music scores will be available (individual ones you find on line (plenty of free ones) or fingerstyle books you can learn tunes from. Start with the simpler tunes and go on from there. Better yet tab written out in some program that can play it back so you can hear how it goes (e.g. GuitarPro or PowerTab or TablEdit or a fingerstyle book that has audio (CD or online) included with it.

At this stage picking things up by ear or following along on a video without things written out probably not except some the easier things. However in the long run that is a good way to train your ears.
Good luck.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Hello! New on the forum and first post
In my late 50's and self-learning fingerstyle, I do a lot of studying but don't have much time for actual practicing unfortunately.
Most of what I see regarding learning is memorizing fingerstyle patterns, "learn these few patterns and you can play 1000's of songs" sort of thing.
I kind of doubt that, but just how much time should one spend on learning set patterns?
I know it's vital to get the thumb and fingers doing their own thing so maybe that's the idea behind the patterns.

Second thing is, quite a few of the fingerstyle tabs i'm finding online have no chords shown above the measures.
From what I understand is in fingerstyle the "chords" aren't EXACTLY "chords" correct?
One must figure out from the notes what "chord shapes" are being used in each measure?
That idea REALLY threw me off from starting to learn acoustic basic strumming to fingerstyle, the idea of "chord shapes" being just that apparently, so you can't just memorize chords and have it work.
I bought a chord stamp and ink pad to help with actually stamping the sheet music and drawing in what chord "shape" is being played (turns out you have to learn to read sheet music and not just tabs as well, sheez!)
And here I was thinking this would be easy.....

Yes, the patterns are really for learning right hand dexterity and in finger style the tabs/notation aren't chord based.

I recommend this book:
https://markhansonguitar.com/product...-online-audio/

And this book to get you started with finger style:
https://markhansonguitar.com/product...cking-book-cd/

[ddn1661]

Thanks again everyone for the links and tips, the Hanson solo fingerstyle book looks interesting.
I'm going to have to learn to read music as many of my favorite songs just aren't available as tabs, let alone as fingerstyle unfortunately.

[Brent Hutto]

Sounds good.

But it's probably going to take a good bit of time and effort. I can sight read music notation decently (at least my reading is faster than my technical ability to play the notes) on piano, mandolin, fiddle and a couple other instruments but reading notation to play guitar was quite a challenge.

Definitely doable though. Just get started and be willing to stick with it. Playing tunes from tab is a good way to keep yourself motivated and having fun while you're figuring out the notation-reading stuff!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ddn1661

Thanks again everyone for the links and tips, the Hanson solo fingerstyle book looks interesting.

Yes, I like that one too, because he begins with basic patterns, he doesn't stress the "independent thumb" idea.

Originally Posted by ddn1661

I'm going to have to learn to read music as many of my favorite songs just aren't available as tabs, let alone as fingerstyle unfortunately.

Right. Depending on what kind of songs you want to learn, I also suggest using slowdown software or apps to help learn things by ear. Because (a) there will be times when you can't find either tab or notation, and (b) whatever you do find is not always 100% reliable. (Even if you think it is, you need to be able to check it by ear.)
I recommend Transcribe: https://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/screenshots.html. Free for a month, and then ridiculously cheap after that. I've used it for over 15 years, and probably use it a few times a day, every day (normally for only fragments of tunes, to check details).

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by TBman

Yes, the patterns are really for learning right hand dexterity and in finger style the tabs/notation aren't chord based.

I recommend this book:
https://markhansonguitar.com/product...-online-audio/

And this book to get you started with finger style:
https://markhansonguitar.com/product...cking-book-cd/

+1 on this, excellent foundational courses.

[ddn1661]

Speaking of slowing down things, I find that looking at videos of songs I want to play from Youtube and playing them at much slower speeds allows me to see what the players fingers are doing, if the video angles are good that is.