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  #1  
Old 10-04-2021, 06:20 PM
sydney jenkins sydney jenkins is offline
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Default transcribing and rhythm

When songs are sort of slower and maybe you're not beaten over the head with the beat through drums, or maybe there's a lot of space between what's being played how do you find out the beat or the time signature? I'm sort of struggling with this version of the song called road to the sun the version is by Sharon Isbin. The original is easier because there are drums. Also is it hard to transcribe songs like this because it's just guitar all alone and a lot of un played time. Can most seasoned musicians hear a song like this and immediately spot the time signature or the rhythm?
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Old 10-04-2021, 07:14 PM
buddyhu buddyhu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney jenkins View Post
When songs are sort of slower and maybe you're not beaten over the head with the beat through drums, or maybe there's a lot of space between what's being played how do you find out the beat or the time signature? I'm sort of struggling with this version of the song called road to the sun the version is by Sharon Isbin. The original is easier because there are drums. Also is it hard to transcribe songs like this because it's just guitar all alone and a lot of un played time. Can most seasoned musicians hear a song like this and immediately spot the time signature or the rhythm?
Am just learning to do this…I have been playing for some time, and if it wasnt simple 4/4 or 3/4, I wouldn’t know he time signature. And if there were any tricky notes (like a bunch of 8th notes with a couple of 3/16th notes sprinkled in, it was agony trying to translate something this into my own playing. Like trying to get proper note timing on a song like “Both Sides Now”.

I am taking lessons from Richard Gilewitz, and he has me searching for shett music, clapping out time, singing time, and only after doing that for several reps, trying to play things in time. So it is a multi-step process that doesn’t involve any playing for a good ten or fifteen minutes of just looking at the first page of music/tab and thinking and counting and marking up the music. It is good stuff, but requires more discipline than i have brought to my playing before now.

He also has me using a metronome, and has taught me how to use it effectively (it isn’t as straightforward as I had imagined).

So I don’t know what most players can do, but I can say that what you have described has been a challenge for me to learn…though learning it is VERY valuable!
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Old 10-04-2021, 08:16 PM
RLetson RLetson is offline
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I'm an ear player who can't easily decode time from sheet music--though if I'm listening while following a chart, I can see how the dots match what I hear. But not the other way 'round. I can *hear* time signatures and can usually name the not-too-exotic ones--and I learned to count out some odd-number signatures by twos-and-threes. (I think I learned that from a from a player who does those Eastern-European/Greek-dance pulses--123-12-12 and such.)

So while I don't think I can define,say, a slip jig or some of those Scandanavian dances with "stumbling" rhythms, I can play along OK after I get a decent sample. I suspect that this is one of those places where knowing-how is possible without knowing-that. It's also why I would never have even gotten in the door as a studio player. (Though not reading apparently didn't slow down Glenn Campbell in sessions--or Django or Gabby Pahinui.)
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Old 10-05-2021, 03:00 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney jenkins View Post
When songs are sort of slower and maybe you're not beaten over the head with the beat through drums, or maybe there's a lot of space between what's being played how do you find out the beat or the time signature? I'm sort of struggling with this version of the song called road to the sun the version is by Sharon Isbin. The original is easier because there are drums. Also is it hard to transcribe songs like this because it's just guitar all alone and a lot of un played time. Can most seasoned musicians hear a song like this and immediately spot the time signature or the rhythm?
I just checked out that track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Jk3q0wo68
- and I agree it's hard to determine the time at least in the intro.
Once it gets to 0:24, then it's clearly in 3/4, at least for a while. Fairly free time, but it seems to fall into a slow 3/4 near enough.

Essentially you have to decide what will make it easiest to read, to be able to use the notation for reference in order play the tune and get close to that sound?
E.g., where do the main accents seem to fall, or the chord roots? Maybe they mark the downbeats of the bars? And then any loose rhythms in the melody can be simplified to the nearest standard note values, and you allow for expressive time variation when you play it.

For the intro, it mght even make sense to have no bar lines at all, and just write out the notes in order, using whatever note values (quarters, 8ths, 16ths, triplets) seem closest. Perhaps when you've done that, you can see how it might fall into bars, to give it a logical shape.

In this case though, I would definitely be searching for some other version with a steadier rhythm, for reference.

Incidentally, I strongly recommend using Transcribe software: https://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/screenshots.html. As long as you are able to determine where downbeats fall in the music, you can mark those manually on the waveform as it plays. Then you have a visual guide as to where the notes fall relative to the beats. It might not help much with very free rhythms like this track, but it's useful for complex rhythms, syncopations and so on, within steadier tempos.
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Old 10-05-2021, 04:29 AM
hatamoto hatamoto is offline
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I usually hear when the chord changes. That's my cue. Other than that, I just feel it out..sorry I know it's not helpful, but like I said, watch out for the chord change and experiment counting with it in your head. It gets better with practice.


I searched the video. It sounds like a waltz to me when the rhythm started to kick in, so I think it's in 3/4 time.
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:08 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:19 PM
sydney jenkins sydney jenkins is offline
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Hey thanks for your responses! I was thinking maybe the player wasn't playing it in perfect time or maybe just generally in songs like this even really top notch players play just as they feel it a little bit where there's long rests and it can be difficult to track. I sort of forgot I posted this and am more or less just getting all the chords and notes right and probably will try and alter it to be in some time so I can practice it more thoroughly while trying to keep the feel. I see someone else posted someone who transcribed it and they have 6/8 time which sort of felt right when I was trying but I would then sort of lose it. Thanks for your thoughts! I initially replied after just literally scrolling seeing there was someone who transcribed it and didn't even look at it and at second look realize there are bars with different beats per bar and maybe different tempos which doesn't help never seen that before.

Last edited by sydney jenkins; 10-05-2021 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:37 PM
sydney jenkins sydney jenkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
This is interesting I know what some notation means but never seen a note with and equal sign but I assume that's bpm and it changes along with not even beats per bar which is probably part of the problem for me trying to find the rhythm or I'm still just not the best at hearing it. Thanks for this!
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Old 10-06-2021, 09:12 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney jenkins View Post
This is interesting I know what some notation means but never seen a note with and equal sign but I assume that's bpm and it changes along with not even beats per bar which is probably part of the problem for me trying to find the rhythm or I'm still just not the best at hearing it. Thanks for this!
Yes, this is an overprescriptive translation of the timing in the recording. It's an attempt to get the note lengths and phrasing as close as possible - with those changes in tempo and the 3/8 and 5/8 bars.
It would certainly help in getting the feel of the original, but don't take it too literally. You can bet the performer was not thinking in these terms at all.

The significant things are the chords, while the spacing of the notes between the chords is flexible. Roughly as fast or slow as shown, but only roughly. It needs to feel relaxed and expressive.

Of course, for the transcriber it's still a problem!
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:11 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Another (perhaps looser timing version) of the score.

For my own compositions I usually try to tab close to the
timing I play it though that sometimes can be too tedious
to do that and is easier to round off the edges a bit.




I usually try and tab out my music close to the timing I play it though that sometimes can be too tedious to do that and is easier to round off the edges a bit.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 10-06-2021 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 10-07-2021, 07:43 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Another (perhaps looser timing version) of the score.

For my own compositions I usually try to tab close to the
timing I play it though that sometimes can be too tedious
to do that and is easier to round off the edges a bit.


Yes, that one looks a lot clearer. I.e., I'd find it easier to follow.
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