minor pentatonic over major chords

[Badgerbank]

I did wonder if the blues track was using seventh chords. I wasnt able to decide on that. That would make sense if that is so. Thanks for the explanation. Not sure i totally understand as yet but it gives me something to work on.

And at least reassures me that it was not just my poor playing that was the problem.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

So root of the major pentatonic in g is on the third fret of the e string whereas the root of the E minor pentatonic is the open E string. But there are some songs where you can play the G minor pentatonic over a G major key and it works. As I mentioned it works definitely with blues songs in G major.

The major G minor pentatonic scale is the same as the A# major pentatonic scale. It's how you play it that gives it it's sound. If a G minor pentatonic scale doesn't sound correct then try playing the G major pentatonic scale.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

I see what you are saying Doug. That does make sense. I am now wondering why the first track is considered blues and the second isnt. Maybe its the rythm of the first track that tells us that its blues and therefore that blues notes are correct.

Blues, quite simply, is a totally different system of melody and harmony from the western (Euro-classical) concept of major and minor "keys" derived from fixed 7-note scales.

Blues derives from a combination of traditional African and (mostly) British folk vocal practices, which (historically) worked without chords, or with instruments whose tuning was not fixed.

The "blues scale" is not a fixed-pitch scale like western scales. In particular it has a "neutral 3rd", meaning a note between minor and major that's not only indeterminate in pitch, but can move around. The 7th of the scale is also flattened - not always exactly a b7 but close to it. And then there is the #4/b5, another movable note between the 4th and 5th.

In the 19th century when blues apparently began to develop as a rural folk style in the southern States, it was sung by individuals who might accompany themselves on an open-tuned guitar played with a slide. So the frets were irrelevant, except as useful marker points!

Then in the early 1900s, certain western-trained bandleaders and composers - recognising the spreading popular appeal of this music - decided to add chords to it so that western-trained musicians and jazz groups could play it. The chords they used were the basic major key I-IV-V, because the open tuned guitar was tuned to a major chord, and it seemed as if the scale worked by flattening notes occasionally (not by starting with a minor key and raising notes occasionally).

In short, the scale (minor pentatonic-ish, flexible) rules, and the chords are a later imposition - seeming to want to "imprison" the scale. The clash between them is part of the whole expressive quality of the genre: sometimes the blue notes will bend into the nearest chord tone, sometimes they'll just ignore the chords altogether.

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

I still wonder a little though how 'sad' songs like the Eagles Tequila Sunset and Dylan's Knocking on heavens door do not work with the G minor pentatonic

The blues is not "sad" music! Its subject matter may often be about depression, loss, destitution, frustration, etc. But the point of the music is to make you feel better! To exorcise those feelings, as it were. Blues never makes you feel sad - or it certainly shouldn't, even when it's slow. It always has a defiant energy.

In popular music, like those two songs, (Tequlia Sunrise, btw,) sadness is often expressed in major keys, usually by slow tempos. That's because major keys are especially good at expressing gentle nostalgia or wistfulness (as in those two). Minor keys are more "dark" and "intense.

Here's an example of the oldest kind of blues, probably the way it sounded over 100 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgrQoZHnNY

He's tuned to open G. Obviously the theme is the saddest there is (bereavement), but the music is energetic. You could dance to it, and listeners probably would have back then.

When blues guitarists play lead solos, they are imitating that kind of singing, with all its swoops. It kind of averages out around minor pentatonic, hence the use of that when first teaching rock lead guitar, because rock music derives largely from the blues.

When it comes to tunes like Tequila Sunrise, or Knockin' On Heaven's Door, they are more from country and popular music traditions, adhering more to European major and minor key principles, so improvisation will follow the material in the song itself, not a scale from outside with clashes. If you want a pentatonic scale to use it would be the major pentatonic, not the minor pentatonic . In fact, the "safe" thing to do on a mahor key track (like your second example) i sto choose the pentatonic of the chord (major or minor accordingly), remembering that relative pentatonics are just modes of each other (the same notes). So:

G chord = G major pentatonic (E minor pentatonic)
Em chord = E minor pentatonic (G major pentatonic)
C chord = C major pentatonic
D chord = D major pentatonic

Those pentatonic are all subsets of the G major scale, so they fit the key as well as the chord.

[egordon99]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

The major G minor pentatonic scale is the same as the A# major pentatonic scale. It's how you play it that gives it it's sound. If a G minor pentatonic scale doesn't sound correct then try playing the G major pentatonic scale.

Time to be pedantic.

Gm is the relative minor of Bb, not A#.

[Badgerbank]

Thanks everyone for the answers. Especially Jonpr and Doug. It turns out to be a really interesting topic historically as well as in terms of the musical intricacies.

The reason i was confused initially was that i found online guitar teachers focusing on minor penatoncic licks and scales but whenever i tried to improvise i found myself using major pentatonic and i did wonder if i was just not using the minor scale properly.

Now i realise its just that i gravitate to songs that need major pentatonic. The exception is that i really like electric English folk music of the sort played by Fairport Convention and Sandy Denny/Fotheringay. Some of those songs are in minor keys so minor Penatatonic of course works well.

Thanks again for the explanations

[Italuke]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Playing straight minor pentatonic over a major chord is something I hear people force, but it doesn't really work. That pesky third is the issue...if you just glance through it, you can get away with it...but hang on it? Ugh...screams "hack."

BUT...the blues sound on a major chord (or 7th chord) can be a great thing...but pay attention to that third. Bend it up slightly toward the major 3rd...or hammer on/slide from the minor third to that major third. Handle that note correctly and you'll hear some classic sounds...

Listen to great blues players...they'll almost NEVER just hang on a m3 over a major or 7th sound. They're always doing something with that note. That little tug upward from m3 to M3...that in many ways is the very essence of the blues sound.

Good blues playing is a lot more than just a minor pentatonic scale.

Yup, this. It's an art, not a science. I found, as one who has studied too much theory (masters degree), that embracing the ambiguity makes me a better musician. We don't always get that from teachers or certainly internet learning.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by egordon99

Time to be pedantic.

Gm is the relative minor of Bb, not A#.

That shows you what I know.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

Can anyone help me with my understanding of this. Guitar teachers seem to focus a lot on minor pentatonics(as opposed to major). Part of the reason for this seems to be that minor pentatonics can(apparently) be played over minor or major key songs. But i have problems playing minor pentatonic over a song in the major key.
When i try minor pentatonic over a backing track its fine if its a blues style track (or in a minor key) but otherwise it doesnt sound correct. Yet these blues songs are it seems to me just three major chords. So what is so different about the non blues songs that means minor pentatonic does not work?

I have tried a number of rock classics (Eagles for example) where minor does not seem to work even though I am told that minor works over blues and rock.

I have looked all over for a convincing answer to this but am struggling to find one. Grate ful to anyone who can help

Have a listen to this, Brian uses major and minor pentatonic phrases to ornament jingle Bells in a Bluesy style, you need to subscribe to his site to view the whole lesson but this taster should be enough to get the idea.
As mentioned by Doug it's all about context, here the context is all about challenging expectations, the listener thinks there's Christmas songs and there's Blues songs and they're not the same they live in different boxes and Brian is saying " Oh really? Well here is a Bluesy Christmas song bet you didn't expect that!"
https://www.activemelody.com/lesson/...-lesson-ep389/
In other words he's taken something out of context and placed it in a different setting.

[raysachs]

No reason to force a minor pentatonic when it doesn’t feel right - if it doesn’t feel right, it’s not. I’d say get equally comfortable with the minor and major pentatonics so you can play either in any key, all over the neck. And then you can mix and match them anytime. Some progressions feel way better with one or the other, some feel great with both - so use both, use combinations of notes from both. And always keep the relative minors in mind - if you see an Em and a G in a progression, you know what scale you’re playing and you can use both the major and minor tonics along the way. Same with Am and C, or Dm and F.

I’m a limited player and the major and minor pentatonic are the only scales I’m really fluent with, but on a good day, that never feels like a limitation. And on a bad day, I don’t think having MORE notes at my disposal is gonna help much… I learned the minor pentatonic first and I understood the major was just down three frets, but it took me a while to really get the feel of the major - it doesn’t resolve in the same way as the minor at all. Once I got the feel of the major in my head, my playing opened up quite a bit. Now I love em both equally, sometimes intermingled, sometimes not.

Hey, if it’s good enough for BB King and Eric Clapton, it’s good enough for me - both of those guys made a fine living just mixing the minor and major pentatonic scales, and rarely if ever venturing beyond them…

-Ray

[Silly Moustache]

This is my take (using E as an example only) :

Std E Major E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, Eb, E

Natural minor E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E

E Maj Pent E, F#, G#, B, C#, E

E Min Pent E, G, A, B, D, E

BLUES (Hex) E, G, A, Bb, B, D, E

Blues is the expression of "mood".
Moods vary, expressions vary.

Musical pieces can change from one scale to another.

Basically, depending upon what you want to "say" in your music, you can use all or any of the above notes.

The only note on the fretboard that is missing for the above list is "F" -and I'm sure I've used it in a slide up or down in the past in an E blues.

[mr. beaumont]

Blues players will often mix and match major and minor pentatonic too, in the same solo.

[nickv6]

"Eric Clapton, it’s good enough for me - both of those guys made a fine living just mixing the minor and major pentatonic scales, and rarely if ever venturing beyond them"

Astonishing isn't it?

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by nickv6

"(Hey, if it’s good enough for BB King and) Eric Clapton, it’s good enough for me - both of those guys made a fine living just mixing the minor and major pentatonic scales, and rarely if ever venturing beyond them"

Astonishing isn't it?

Kinda. But OTOH, there's that African guy who was showing up on Youtube a lot for a while who was playing a guitar with ONE string, and he was making pretty great music with it. Theory is theory and can be useful and helpful in making music, but making music is always the point, and primitive music can often be just as beautiful and inspired as sophisticated music. The blues is relatively primitive and is my favorite type of music - anything I like to any degree tends to have some relationship to the blues. I like more sophisticated stuff too, but it never hits me in the gut the same way, so my playing, as well as my listening has always been right around the edges of the blues.

BB and Eric (and Peter Green and Muddy and countless others) are among the finest practitioners, so, to repeat, if it's good enough for them....

-Ray