minor pentatonic over major chords

[Badgerbank]

Can anyone help me with my understanding of this. Guitar teachers seem to focus a lot on minor pentatonics(as opposed to major). Part of the reason for this seems to be that minor pentatonics can(apparently) be played over minor or major key songs. But i have problems playing minor pentatonic over a song in the major key.
When i try minor pentatonic over a backing track its fine if its a blues style track (or in a minor key) but otherwise it doesnt sound correct. Yet these blues songs are it seems to me just three major chords. So what is so different about the non blues songs that means minor pentatonic does not work?

I have tried a number of rock classics (Eagles for example) where minor does not seem to work even though I am told that minor works over blues and rock.

I have looked all over for a convincing answer to this but am struggling to find one. Grate ful to anyone who can help

[stanron]

Teachers teach the minor pentatonic scale because it is easy to learn, and therefor easy to teach, although the 'easy to learn' reason is probably the main reason, You are right in pointing out that it doesn't work in all cases.

It is a 'reduced' scale. Not all the possible notes are there and for melodic music (and some rock music is melodic) one of the notes is very wrong. There are seven notes in a major or minor scale. A pentatonic (five note) scale has two notes missing. The possibly 'very wrong' note is the second note of the pentatonic scale and the third note of the full scale. In the key of E that is the third fret on the two open E strings and the open G string.

If you listen to any of the old blues players, which is where this scale originated, you will hear that this note is almost always played slightly sharp, or bent up. If the note sounds wrong you could try bending it until it sounds right or slide it up just one fret.

[Mr. Jelly]

There is not enough information for me to get a handle on what you are doing so I am assuming here. My response may not make any sense. The minor pentatonic scale that I play in the key of E or Em or an E blues is the same notes as the major pentatonic scale in the key of G. It's the same with C and Am etc. Not the same notes but the idea is the same. To me the accent is different whether I am playing in a minor or major.

[Badgerbank]

Thanks Stanron, that makes sense - although it does seem that is more than just the second note that is out of kilter. Plus what i dont understand is why it works over some three major chord songs and not others.

I know what you mean Mr Jelly, but i would think of that as playing a Major pentatonic. The notes are the same but the tonal centre changes. So root of the major pentatonic in g is on the third fret of the e string whereas the root of the E minor pentatonic is the open E string. But there are some songs where you can play the G minor pentatonic over a G major key and it works. As I mentioned it works definitely with blues songs in G major.

[stanron]

The fourth note will sound out of kilter over chord V, B or B7 in the key of E. That note is D and in the B or B7 chord there is a D# so they clash. That clash is reduced and may even disappear if another note is played immediately afterwards.

If a note lasts more than just fraction of a second it becomes a part of the chord and any notes just one half step apart will clash. If you immediately play another note it becomes a 'passing note' and can end up sounding quite good.

[rllink]

I'm still a poor and struggling guitar player so take it for what it is worth. Two years ago my first teacher had me playing minor pentatonic scales up and down the neck "without thinking," in his words. We were pretty centered on that. We parted last fall and I realized much the same, they didn't always work. So I started playing major scales up the neck, which came pretty fast as I already knew how to play scales. This spring, they have sort of melded into just one big scale with different voices to choose from. I think that I'm mixing them up together. So now I started with a new teacher recently and showed him what I could do in that regard with scales hoping for some reaction, good or bad.. He said, " sounds like you have a handle on it." Then we went straight to strumming patterns and palm muting. He didn't critique it or anything. It appears they each have different opinions on what is important.

For the record, I like the direction my new teacher is taking me right now.

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by stanron

The fourth note will sound out of kilter over chord V, B or B7 in the key of E. That note is D and in the B or B7 chord there is a D# so they clash. That clash is reduced and may even disappear if another note is played immediately afterwards.

If a note lasts more than just fraction of a second it becomes a part of the chord and any notes just one half step apart will clash. If you immediately play another note it becomes a 'passing note' and can end up sounding quite good.

You're never more than one fret from a note that sounds good. Of course, there is still the question of whether you want to move up a fret or down.

D.H.

[FrankHudson]

To my mind there are no hard rules to melodic playing. If you get the sounds and colors you (or your audience, or employer...) want they're "right."

Tension, and "outside" clashing notes are tension, is part of music in my concept. As has already been mentioned, in context they are often resolved to another more consonant note. Blues players often play notes that are resolved to or moved off of resolution (bends or slides to or from the consonant note on guitar for example). That's part of what makes a blues lead sound "bluesy."

If you know your pentatonic minor scale, you also know your pentatonic major scale as they just move their fretting positions three frets lower on the fretboard. And if you play those colors often enough against various chords you'll understand how to mix the colors.

[mr. beaumont]

Playing straight minor pentatonic over a major chord is something I hear people force, but it doesn't really work. That pesky third is the issue...if you just glance through it, you can get away with it...but hang on it? Ugh...screams "hack."

BUT...the blues sound on a major chord (or 7th chord) can be a great thing...but pay attention to that third. Bend it up slightly toward the major 3rd...or hammer on/slide from the minor third to that major third. Handle that note correctly and you'll hear some classic sounds...

Listen to great blues players...they'll almost NEVER just hang on a m3 over a major or 7th sound. They're always doing something with that note. That little tug upward from m3 to M3...that in many ways is the very essence of the blues sound.

Good blues playing is a lot more than just a minor pentatonic scale.

[Doug Young]

There's two possible answers I can think of:

1) I think you may be confusing "shapes" with "scales". The shape of a pentatonic scale like:

e|--5--8----|
B|--5--8----|
G|--5--7----|
D|--5--7----|
A|--5--7----|
E|--5--8----|

could be either an Am pentatonic or a C major pentatonic.

Am pentatonic is A C D E G, while C Major pentatonic is C D E G A. Same notes, different order. Two different scales, whose notes are found in the same shape on the guitar.

So you play it over either an Am chord (in which case the "shape" is giving you notes of the Am pentatonic scale), or you play it over C major (in which case, the same shape corresponds to the notes of a C major scale).

This is true of scales beyond just pentatonics. For example, a major scale: The same "shape" on the guitar can be considered to be a major scale, or a minor scale, or in fact any one of 7 modes. Why gets into more theory than I suspect you want to know at this point. But the bottom line is that many scales contain the same notes , just starting from different notes (a different sequence). When you think about them visually on the guitar as shapes, they are easy to blur together. So many people will learn that Am pentatonic shape and continue to think of it an Am scale, even if they are using it over a C major chord.

2) Many rock players use the minor pentatonic scale as a "blues scale", where the 3rd and 7th are flattened, even over major chords. Often they end up bending that minor 3rd up to a major, or may just leave it alone as it sounds "bluesy".

[Badgerbank]

Thanks for all the feedback. A lot of interesting stuff to try and get my head around. I guess the puzzlement arose earlier today (UK time) when i tried playing a G Minor pentatonic over each of the following backing tracks. Both are in G major, In the first track it was almost effortless - almost anything i did sounded good. In the second track it was difficult to get anything to sound good.

Here are the two tracks:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojCojlLfkzI

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4T2EQnGRGw

In terms of chords are far as i can make out both are essentially playing the I
IV and V chords of the key. The second track also has an Em but i dont see that makes a substantial difference.

So to me very puzzling how the g minor pentatonic is perfect for the first track and not for the second

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

So to me very puzzling how the g minor pentatonic is perfect for the first track and not for the second

This is all about context. The 1st example is a blues, so "blue notes" sound as we expect. The flattened 3rd in the scale is the expected blues sound. The 2nd is a "happy" G Major sounding thing, so the minor 3rd sounds wrong here. Use an "E Minor" /aka G Major pentatonic scale for that one.

Blues is a whole different thing that doesn't follow standard european/western harmony, and includes the use of "blue notes". We've learned thru exposure that this is how blues sounds, so the "wrong" notes are expected as part of the style.

[mr. beaumont]

That Em makes a big difference...puts you squarely in G major.

A I IV V can be a little more ambiguous, as those are the chords in a classic blues progression...they'd more likely be played as 7ths (or 9ths) but that's why playing "blues" on it stayed safe.

Style and rhythmic feel can affect this too...can you share the tracks? I'd love to demo a bit for you, so much easier to explain with sounds than words.

[Badgerbank]

I see what you are saying Doug. That does make sense. I am now wondering why the first track is considered blues and the second isnt. Maybe its the rythm of the first track that tells us that its blues and therefore that blues notes are correct.

I still wonder a little though how 'sad' songs like the Eagles Tequila Sunset and Dylan's Knocking on heavens door do not work with the G minor pentatonic

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Badgerbank

I see what you are saying Doug. That does make sense. I am now wondering why the first track is considered blues and the second isnt. Maybe its the rythm of the first track that tells us that its blues and therefore that blues notes are correct.

I still wonder a little though how 'sad' songs like the Eagles Tequila Sunset and Dylan's Knocking on heavens door do not work with the G minor pentatonic

I know I used "happy" but it's not about sad or happy, really. It's about the relationship between scales and harmony. A G major chord has the notes GBD. If you play a Bb (which is in the G minor pent), it's going to clash against the B natural in the G chord. You're playing a "minor" note in a major-sounding song. In a pop style, that is likely going to sound wrong.

Your Blues example isn't actually using G major. The first chord is a G7. Blues simply uses a completely different notion of harmony. In a pop tune in G, you'll likely have G, C and D7. In blues, you may have G7, C7, D7, which standard western harmony rules say can't happen. But it does, and it's the sound we've learned to hear in a blues. The other sound we've learned to hear is the flattened 3rd. If you want to get theoretical, you could say the Bb is actually a #9, so it creates a G7#9 (often called "The Hendrix chord", since Hendrix used it prominently). It works because that's the sound of blues. Tequila Sunrise is a pop/country sort of tune, and we simply don't expect to hear that clashing note in this situation.

We recognize the stereo-typical sound of your backing track as blues, so we accept a blues sounding melody over it.