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  #16  
Old 01-31-2023, 04:41 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
Actually, it would probably be better. Vinyl has reduced transients & a significantly rolled off top end.
But that's because the mastering guy had to do all the work to make it happen.

Which kinda negates a previous claim that vinyl has so much more high-frequency than a CD does.
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2023, 04:48 PM
Horseflesh Horseflesh is offline
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If everyone's wrong about vinyl, can someone post the real truth, or link to a legit article?

Whenever I read about it -- again, not that I can even hear high frequencies any more myself -- all I read is that vinyl is so much better.

So someone, please, take advantage of this teachable moment. Be pedantic. Passive-aggressive "lol nope" posts aren't interesting or helpful.
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2023, 07:45 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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But that's because the mastering guy had to do all the work to make it happen.

Which kinda negates a previous claim that vinyl has so much more high-frequency than a CD does.

Actually, it was quite the opposite. The real problem with cutting a master was the low end. If there was too much low end the cutter would cut right through the wall of the groove. This was the reason the “limiting amplifier” was created. To control the dynamics during the cutting of the master disc. This is also the catalyst for things like M/S processing; which was a result of the development of the elliptical EQ (which allowed for the low end to be focused to the center of a stereo image).

The reason for the tapered high end & the smoothing of the transients is the physical limitations of the playback system.

Those of us who were working in audio in the days before digital remember all of this. It’s kind of funny that both vinyl & tape have this magical lure these days. There are so many things better about digital…and I say that even though I have 3 tape decks at the studio.
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  #19  
Old 01-31-2023, 11:02 PM
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Actually, it was quite the opposite. The real problem with cutting a master was the low end.
That doesn't explain this (which seems to be a very detailed explanation of the differences between digital and vinyl . . and it goes into what things need to be done in mastering for vinyl:

https://www.sageaudio.com/blog/maste...cord%20cutting.

How to Master for Vinyl?
Control any intense dynamics
Attenuate any excessively high frequencies
Center the lower frequencies to avoid phasing issues
Do not use brick wall limiting
Do not create an excessively loud master
Keep the limitations of consumer grade playback systems in mind
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  #20  
Old 01-31-2023, 11:06 PM
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If everyone's wrong about vinyl, can someone post the real truth, or link to a legit article?
See the article I linked above


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Whenever I read about it -- again, not that I can even hear high frequencies any more myself -- all I read is that vinyl is so much better.
In the end, which one PREFERS is person. But digital (CDs) are clearly better in a technical sense.

I like to have fun with audiophiles who prefer vinyl: I tell them I can make a CD sound just like vinyl. How? Run it through a tube pre-amp, then add a little pop/crackling, and throw in a bit of wow and flutter, and . . this is when I usually have to turn and run.

But seriously, some people prefer distortion on their guitars (even acoustics sometimes). And that's basically what vinyl does . . . it distorts things . . which might be pleasing in some circumstances to some people.

All I know is that the first time I heard a CD, I knew there was no way I was going back to vinyl.
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  #21  
Old 02-01-2023, 12:37 PM
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I think this is one of those "well ackshually" technicalities. I believe vinyl can store and reproduce high frequencies above that which can be reproduced by an audio CD.

I've probably never owned a sound system that could play back those frequencies though, and at my age I surely cannot hear them any more anyway. Add in vinyl snap crackle pop noises and I simply have no interest in vinyl myself.

It's fun that it is coming back, it's just not for me.
Well I believe it is technically true that vinyl can (theoretically) reproduce right up to 50,000 Hz and maybe beyond... Where a typical CD cut from a sample rate of 44.1 k can only reproduce a frequency 1/2 that 44.1 rate = or 20,050 Hz.
But from a practical standpoint that is kind of irrelevant, or perhaps a "distinction without a difference" ---- because most sound systems do not reproduce above 20 k Hz and humans only hear from 20k (at the most and is an exception) and down

I believe the claim I have heard, made by most vinyl enthusiasts is that they prefer the presence and left to right sound stage of clarity of well done vinyl , over cheap mass produced CD's, which can lack in presence and sound stage. Especially in the early years of CD
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2023, 12:43 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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I think this is one of those "well ackshually" technicalities. I believe vinyl can store and reproduce high frequencies above that which can be reproduced by an audio CD.
It can, but there's an overriding technicality. If the source material has ever been digital, there are none of those super-high frequencies to store and reproduce.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2023, 12:53 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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I believe the claim made by most vinyl enthusiasts is that they prefer the presence and left to right sound stage of well done vinyl over cheap mass produced CD's, which can lack presence and sound stage. Especially in the early years of CD
Cheap CD players are part of it, too. A really good DAC makes a difference.

There's another thing -- for some people including me, there's a perceived difference in recorded material that has never been digital. It's not a "hearing" thing, it's more of a "central nervous system" thing. I can put the greatest-sounding CD on and hit Play and three songs into it I get twitchy and want to shut it off. Give me some old noisy vinyl or a 1/4" tape or a cassette that's never been digitized and I can listen to it all day, even if it's music I don't really like. The world seems to be 99.99% people who think I'm nuts and a couple other kooks who sense what I sense.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2023, 01:30 PM
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I can put the greatest-sounding CD on and hit Play and three songs into it I get twitchy and want to shut it off. Give me some old noisy vinyl or a 1/4" tape or a cassette that's never been digitized and I can listen to it all day, even if it's music I don't really like. The world seems to be 99.99% people who think I'm nuts and a couple other kooks who sense what I sense.
That's the kinda stuff a double-blind test could reveal.

The problem, though, is that vinyl is way too easily identified by pops/clicks/wow/flutter.

So I'd propose a triple-blind test: vinyl, CD, CD made to emulate vinyl

But I still don't get why anybody would prefer vinyl over CD.

And the business about losing sound stage / separation on CD? (I think that was somebody else). That doesn't make much sense to me . . . you can pan left/right on digital/CD just like you can on vinyl.

There's been some amazing work done with digital, too (I think it works best with headphones) of having just TWO speakers give the impression of things come from not just left/right, but also to the side and behind you. All psycho-acoustics.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2023, 02:52 PM
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And the business about losing sound stage / separation on CD? (I think that was somebody else). That doesn't make much sense to me . . . you can pan left/right on digital/CD just like you can on vinyl.
I don't use vinyl so just going off of what people claim on various web sites about it

Yes the panning technique is the same-- However thats not the point :::
The claim (don't know if it is true) by vinyl aficionados, is that the definition in the sound stage is more clear and distinct than on CD.
Let's say there is a piano siting just out front of the orchestra at 8 ft right of center. They maintain the you can localize it's exact location easier on vinyl than on CD (is it true I don't know ,,or care all that much )
But back to your OP seems to me the question is not which format is "better" which as we can see in just this thread is a whirlpool of debate ..

The question is (I assume talking about merchandise to sell) at one of your performances or from your website, which is likely to sell thru more quickly and be a better return on investment ?
The only thing the cost difference influences is the number of units you pre order at the same dollar cost.. Which appears to be 7 times more CD's than albums
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2023, 07:20 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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That doesn't explain this (which seems to be a very detailed explanation of the differences between digital and vinyl . . and it goes into what things need to be done in mastering for vinyl:

https://www.sageaudio.com/blog/maste...cord%20cutting.

How to Master for Vinyl?
Control any intense dynamics
Attenuate any excessively high frequencies
Center the lower frequencies to avoid phasing issues
Do not use brick wall limiting
Do not create an excessively loud master
Keep the limitations of consumer grade playback systems in mind

Yeah. That’s a misleading list.

Have you ever sat in a mastering session with a pro mastering engineer mastering for vinyl? I have. Many times.

If you want to learn, book an attended mastering session at a place like Sterling & have the engineer explain the what & whys of mastering for vinyl.

I mean, you’re welcome to believe what you want. But if you really care to learn you need to sit with the experts.
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  #27  
Old 02-01-2023, 07:30 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Default CD vs Vinyl (cost)

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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Cheap CD players are part of it, too. A really good DAC makes a difference.

There's another thing -- for some people including me, there's a perceived difference in recorded material that has never been digital. It's not a "hearing" thing, it's more of a "central nervous system" thing. I can put the greatest-sounding CD on and hit Play and three songs into it I get twitchy and want to shut it off. Give me some old noisy vinyl or a 1/4" tape or a cassette that's never been digitized and I can listen to it all day, even if it's music I don't really like. The world seems to be 99.99% people who think I'm nuts and a couple other kooks who sense what I sense.

Really good D/A is key. I really think the difference starts around $4k. Cheaper stuff is skimping on the analogue path to & from the DAC, even if the DAC is comparable (or the same).

I even did a very interesting converter test with some friends & one of the tests was to compare tape playback (1/2” 2-track 30ips) against our tested converters. One of them was nesrly indistinguishable from the tape.

You can read about the basic test here: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...mp-metric-halo

The linked podcast goes into more detail.
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2023, 07:38 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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All I know is that the first time I heard a CD, I knew there was no way I was going back to vinyl.
For me, hearing “digital black” was a transformative experience.

I was so used to tape, where we always had a noise floor & that meant any silence was really just tape noise. Depending on what tape & what deck, that meant different levels of “silence”.

Though, I still believe in a solid analogue path into digital when recording.
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1991 Washburn HB-35s
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  #29  
Old 02-01-2023, 07:50 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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But back to your OP seems to me the question is not which format is "better" which as we can see in just this thread is a whirlpool of debate ..
So true. And that’s further obfuscated by defining “better”.

I like vinyl. I have lots of vinyl (though, none of it new). But, the fact remains that the music industry had vinyl & was still actively looking for a better medium.

Every single medium has pros & cons. You just have to pick your poison.
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1988 Fender Fretless J Bass
1991 Washburn HB-35s
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1998 Taylor 912c (Custom)
2019 Fender Tele
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  #30  
Old 02-01-2023, 08:01 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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But I still don't get why anybody would prefer vinyl over CD.
What I prefer is never-been-digital over digital.
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