#16
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Which kinda negates a previous claim that vinyl has so much more high-frequency than a CD does. |
#17
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If everyone's wrong about vinyl, can someone post the real truth, or link to a legit article?
Whenever I read about it -- again, not that I can even hear high frequencies any more myself -- all I read is that vinyl is so much better. So someone, please, take advantage of this teachable moment. Be pedantic. Passive-aggressive "lol nope" posts aren't interesting or helpful. |
#18
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Actually, it was quite the opposite. The real problem with cutting a master was the low end. If there was too much low end the cutter would cut right through the wall of the groove. This was the reason the “limiting amplifier” was created. To control the dynamics during the cutting of the master disc. This is also the catalyst for things like M/S processing; which was a result of the development of the elliptical EQ (which allowed for the low end to be focused to the center of a stereo image). The reason for the tapered high end & the smoothing of the transients is the physical limitations of the playback system. Those of us who were working in audio in the days before digital remember all of this. It’s kind of funny that both vinyl & tape have this magical lure these days. There are so many things better about digital…and I say that even though I have 3 tape decks at the studio.
__________________
-Steve 1927 Martin 00-21 1986 Fender Strat 1987 Ibanez RG560 1988 Fender Fretless J Bass 1991 Washburn HB-35s 1995 Taylor 812ce 1996 Taylor 510c (custom) 1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition) 1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition) 1998 Taylor 912c (Custom) 2019 Fender Tele |
#19
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https://www.sageaudio.com/blog/maste...cord%20cutting. How to Master for Vinyl? Control any intense dynamics Attenuate any excessively high frequencies Center the lower frequencies to avoid phasing issues Do not use brick wall limiting Do not create an excessively loud master Keep the limitations of consumer grade playback systems in mind |
#20
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I like to have fun with audiophiles who prefer vinyl: I tell them I can make a CD sound just like vinyl. How? Run it through a tube pre-amp, then add a little pop/crackling, and throw in a bit of wow and flutter, and . . this is when I usually have to turn and run. But seriously, some people prefer distortion on their guitars (even acoustics sometimes). And that's basically what vinyl does . . . it distorts things . . which might be pleasing in some circumstances to some people. All I know is that the first time I heard a CD, I knew there was no way I was going back to vinyl. |
#21
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But from a practical standpoint that is kind of irrelevant, or perhaps a "distinction without a difference" ---- because most sound systems do not reproduce above 20 k Hz and humans only hear from 20k (at the most and is an exception) and down I believe the claim I have heard, made by most vinyl enthusiasts is that they prefer the presence and left to right sound stage of clarity of well done vinyl , over cheap mass produced CD's, which can lack in presence and sound stage. Especially in the early years of CD
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1 Last edited by KevWind; 02-01-2023 at 01:08 PM. |
#22
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It can, but there's an overriding technicality. If the source material has ever been digital, there are none of those super-high frequencies to store and reproduce.
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#23
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There's another thing -- for some people including me, there's a perceived difference in recorded material that has never been digital. It's not a "hearing" thing, it's more of a "central nervous system" thing. I can put the greatest-sounding CD on and hit Play and three songs into it I get twitchy and want to shut it off. Give me some old noisy vinyl or a 1/4" tape or a cassette that's never been digitized and I can listen to it all day, even if it's music I don't really like. The world seems to be 99.99% people who think I'm nuts and a couple other kooks who sense what I sense. |
#24
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The problem, though, is that vinyl is way too easily identified by pops/clicks/wow/flutter. So I'd propose a triple-blind test: vinyl, CD, CD made to emulate vinyl But I still don't get why anybody would prefer vinyl over CD. And the business about losing sound stage / separation on CD? (I think that was somebody else). That doesn't make much sense to me . . . you can pan left/right on digital/CD just like you can on vinyl. There's been some amazing work done with digital, too (I think it works best with headphones) of having just TWO speakers give the impression of things come from not just left/right, but also to the side and behind you. All psycho-acoustics. |
#25
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Yes the panning technique is the same-- However thats not the point ::: The claim (don't know if it is true) by vinyl aficionados, is that the definition in the sound stage is more clear and distinct than on CD. Let's say there is a piano siting just out front of the orchestra at 8 ft right of center. They maintain the you can localize it's exact location easier on vinyl than on CD (is it true I don't know ,,or care all that much ) But back to your OP seems to me the question is not which format is "better" which as we can see in just this thread is a whirlpool of debate .. The question is (I assume talking about merchandise to sell) at one of your performances or from your website, which is likely to sell thru more quickly and be a better return on investment ? The only thing the cost difference influences is the number of units you pre order at the same dollar cost.. Which appears to be 7 times more CD's than albums
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1 |
#26
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Yeah. That’s a misleading list. Have you ever sat in a mastering session with a pro mastering engineer mastering for vinyl? I have. Many times. If you want to learn, book an attended mastering session at a place like Sterling & have the engineer explain the what & whys of mastering for vinyl. I mean, you’re welcome to believe what you want. But if you really care to learn you need to sit with the experts.
__________________
-Steve 1927 Martin 00-21 1986 Fender Strat 1987 Ibanez RG560 1988 Fender Fretless J Bass 1991 Washburn HB-35s 1995 Taylor 812ce 1996 Taylor 510c (custom) 1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition) 1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition) 1998 Taylor 912c (Custom) 2019 Fender Tele |
#27
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CD vs Vinyl (cost)
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Really good D/A is key. I really think the difference starts around $4k. Cheaper stuff is skimping on the analogue path to & from the DAC, even if the DAC is comparable (or the same). I even did a very interesting converter test with some friends & one of the tests was to compare tape playback (1/2” 2-track 30ips) against our tested converters. One of them was nesrly indistinguishable from the tape. You can read about the basic test here: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...mp-metric-halo The linked podcast goes into more detail.
__________________
-Steve 1927 Martin 00-21 1986 Fender Strat 1987 Ibanez RG560 1988 Fender Fretless J Bass 1991 Washburn HB-35s 1995 Taylor 812ce 1996 Taylor 510c (custom) 1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition) 1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition) 1998 Taylor 912c (Custom) 2019 Fender Tele |
#28
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I was so used to tape, where we always had a noise floor & that meant any silence was really just tape noise. Depending on what tape & what deck, that meant different levels of “silence”. Though, I still believe in a solid analogue path into digital when recording.
__________________
-Steve 1927 Martin 00-21 1986 Fender Strat 1987 Ibanez RG560 1988 Fender Fretless J Bass 1991 Washburn HB-35s 1995 Taylor 812ce 1996 Taylor 510c (custom) 1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition) 1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition) 1998 Taylor 912c (Custom) 2019 Fender Tele |
#29
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I like vinyl. I have lots of vinyl (though, none of it new). But, the fact remains that the music industry had vinyl & was still actively looking for a better medium. Every single medium has pros & cons. You just have to pick your poison.
__________________
-Steve 1927 Martin 00-21 1986 Fender Strat 1987 Ibanez RG560 1988 Fender Fretless J Bass 1991 Washburn HB-35s 1995 Taylor 812ce 1996 Taylor 510c (custom) 1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition) 1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition) 1998 Taylor 912c (Custom) 2019 Fender Tele |
#30
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What I prefer is never-been-digital over digital.
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