Comping

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by The Watchman

Thanks for the look behind the curtain. Just doesn't feel right. All this processing makes me respect live music even more. Not too far from completely using AI to generate "music".

Keep in mind that there is a difference in live vs. recorded performance in that a recorded piece can/will be played back over & over. So mistakes are relived, in the exact spot & in the exact way at every listen. In a live setting, a mistake comes & goes and has a much different impact on the experience.

I don't begrudge an artist that takes a little help.

[Bob Womack]

I've run the gamut with comping, as a performer, an engineer, and a producer. I started back in 1981 with manually punching in on the multitrack. Analog machines had/have delays between punching the record button and onset of recording, partly due to solenoid response and partly induced by the intentional fade up of bias current over a few milliseconds to prevent a pop at the punch point. An engineer was expected to learn his gear's response time and punch at whatever advanced point that would cause the edit to occur at the proper place. It was destructive editing and a failure made everyone unhappy. There was a cost for all of this - during these sessions I was expected to look absolutely calm but my blood pressure could spike heavily under the stress of getting it perfectly, over and over. The artist could screw up at will but mistakes by the engineer weren't well-tolerated. It is the way of things.

I always return to a Recording Engineer/Producer article about producer/engineer Val Garay, who engineered and eventually produced for Linda Ronstadt during her peak. The band came in in the morning and worked up the song and had a complete basic track by lunch. Linda sat back and either read magazines or knitted while the band worked. She put in her opinion when necessary (she was a strong part of the process) but spent the time working up her vocals before her takes. Val said that when it was Linda's time, he had to be on his toes, getting the mic adjusted perfectly. Why? With Linda, you got one, maybe two takes of the lead vocal, front to back, and then Linda was GONE. She didn't have patience to slice and dice. She was ready and she nailed it. If she had harmonies she'd print them as well. GONE. Val was left comping between two takes. Most often it was mostly one take with a phrase or two from the other. Think about that when you hear her hits.

I've had experiences like that with an artist. Let me tell you that it is a pleasure to work with these types. I recently worked with a gal who got one song almost perfectly on the scratch track I built the song around. The scratch vocal was on an SM-58 and we weren't going to use it. Once the main tracks were built, I put up an LDC and she got the master vocal tracks in two passes. I comped up the master from those two takes. There was a little touch of manual tuning. I decided to run the bridge vocal triple-tracked so there were a couple more takes of doubles for the bridge. Automation for levels and we had our vocals.

Contrast that to ten years ago I worked with a gal who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid and a lock. She could stand in front of an audience of 10,000 and command their attention, but in the studio she committed aggressions on the musical scale, some of which weren't so micro. I spent weeks comping and tuning her vocals for that album.

Bob

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

That was a fascinating show. If I recall, they use Logic, which has a nice "fast swipe" comping feature. Not sure it compares to other DAWs, but it works well in Logic.

It's the one feature that keeps me bound to Logic in fact! As an Apollo user, I've been tempted to just use Luna, but no fast swipe comping. It's a deal breaker for me.

[kellyb]

I worked on a record some years ago where the singer/leader hired me just to comp vocals with him. I'd guess there were about 20-30 takes per song, and in hindsight, I know now I wasn't the right engineer for it because outside of some big mistakes, I couldn't really hear much difference between them. I certainly didn't care. I sort of silently guffawed at the whole tedious process, but a couple years later, I couldn't help but acknowledge that he made really good choices and that of course his hard work made a difference. I was simply close minded and arrogant.

I personally don't want to go through that with my own vocals. I comp a little, but if I'm going too far down the rabbit hole, in my case it usually means something else is wrong. Either the basic tracks are too tame, or too adventurous, I haven't played/rehearsed it enough, or there's a lyric I never fully embraced...something other than the vocal take making it hard to sing it how I want it to sound.

Now, I just try to write with vocals all the time so that rehearsal and lyric-writing are built into that process, and I'm not trying to do too much of that when I record (unless it's a fun departure or something). That way, if I'm recording something new, I know immediately if it's ready or worth pursuing (i.e., am I going to be able to comp a vocal from 2-3 takes and enjoy doing it). I never want to go back to retrofitting vocals to lengthy and/or weirdo guitar parts that I like.

I comp drums all the time (if using a click)!

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

...Linda was GONE.

Contrast that to ten years ago I worked with a gal who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid and a lock. She could stand in front of an audience of 10,000 and command their attention, but in the studio she committed aggressions on the musical scale, some of which weren't so micro. I spent weeks comping and tuning her vocals for that album.

Bob

Gone! hahaha

The second story is sad. I'm not sure it's comparable, but I have an engineer friend who is one of the kinder people in the world, and he's done well for himself. There was one client that micro-macro-melted down so consistently during mixing sessions that he actually wrote into the contract how much of the mixing session they could physically attend!

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Gone! hahaha

The second story is sad. I'm not sure it's comparable, but I have an engineer friend who is one of the kinder people in the world, and he's done well for himself. There was one client that micro-macro-melted down so consistently during mixing sessions that he actually wrote into the contract how much of the mixing session they could physically attend!

Oh, yeah. Covid has been a great boon in that regard. Mix attendance has dropped right down and people just ask for listen copies. Of course, the direct result is copious "notes" being submitted after the listen copies are heard. And that brings us to my theorum:

Womack's Theorem: Crew morale varies inversely with version number.
As the version number goes up, crew morale proportionally goes down.
It's quite reliable and applicable to everyday life. Managers take note.

Bob

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

That was a fascinating show. If I recall, they use Logic, which has a nice "fast swipe" comping feature. Not sure it compares to other DAWs, but it works well in Logic.

Pro Tools has a swipe comping feature also (I also don't know about any other DAW'S). And to accomplish that feature it has is looped playlist recording on a single track (consecutive new takes from the beginning that does not erase previous take BUT also does not sound/playback the previous take while recording the new take)

[b1j]

Originally Posted by kellyb

It's the one feature that keeps me bound to Logic in fact! As an Apollo user, I've been tempted to just use Luna, but no fast swipe comping. It's a deal breaker for me.

Studio One, very user friendly for an amateur, has a non-destructive fast-swipe comp feature that’s easy and delightful.

[Al Acuff]

I have to agree that Logic's fast swipe comping feature is excellent. Recently I've been learning the LUNA recording system. While comping is not quite as easy it's still pretty easy.

[Al Acuff]

I have to agree that Logic's fast swipe comping feature is excellent. Recently I've been learning the LUNA recording system. While comping is not quite as easy it's still pretty easy.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Pro Tools has a swipe comping feature also (I also don't know about any other DAW'S). And to accomplish that feature it has is looped playlist recording on a single track (consecutive new takes from the beginning that does not erase previous take BUT also does not sound/playback the previous take while recording the new take)

Yep, sounds exactly like what Logic does

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

OWomack's Theorem: Crew morale varies inversely with version number.

I'm just reading a John Lennon bio that's been on my shelf too long, and just read a section where they're talking about recording, I think, the White Album, and they're doing massive numbers of takes. They just did take 61 of something, and John says to George Martin, "how was that one, did we get it yet?", and George replies, "I'm really not sure", to which John comes back, "well, you're not really good for much are you?" :-)

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I learned a new meaning for "comping" from this thread. I've always used it as short for "accompaniment" as used in this Wikipedia definition.

And in Vegas it means something totally else.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yep, sounds exactly like what Logic does

And speaking of helpful features I like, is each take (playlist clip in PT) is a different color, (Looks like Logic does something similar ) and remains that different color even when promoted to the comp track . Which if you are shooting video is very handy so you can easily keep track of which comp section of audio take, correlates to which video take section... So the numbering you can then use in the video editor to match the specific audio take to corresponding video section.. So the correct audio and video are playing (i.e. I also rename the audio takes to match the video takes) so for example on a 3 take vocal the audio take clips are named 1 -2 and 3 in chronological order ,, and the video of those 3 takes is then sectioned/trimmed into the 3 takes and renamed into 1-2 and 3.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

And in Vegas it means something totally else.

Ya it means prolific gambler