Opinions on Trinity vs. mini western + Aura

[studiodunn]

I won't be playing large, loud venues and would never record DI, so what is a better(acoustic sounding) Live set-up. I'm in a bluegrass/country trio and just mic with a 57 now, but we are going the one mic route and with bigger shows in the future I will have to plug in.

thanks

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by studiodunn

I won't be playing large, loud venues and would never record DI, so what is a better(acoustic sounding) Live set-up. I'm in a bluegrass/country trio and just mic with a 57 now, but we are going the one mic route and with bigger shows in the future I will have to plug in.
...thanks

Hi Sd...
The K&K Pure Wesern mini and internal mic is a great option. I have 4 guitars with this and all are passive and I use an external preamp/blender to run guitar-->preamp/blender-->amp/board

As I understand it, the sound board transcoders don't work well with Aura (Aura work best with under saddle pickups).

Another consideration would be just a passive K&K Pure Western Mini plus preamp, and then use an external mic to combine with it on bigger shows.

[studiodunn]

Thanks Larry.

I am a little concerned that the mic part of the trinity can become problematic if the volumes have to get too loud.

I also like the tuner option on the Aura, but have read the same thing - the Aura is designed for UST's and I'm not a fan of them.

So maybe it's a K&K mini along with a Baggs Venue or other DI/Pre I'm looking for.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by studiodunn

Thanks Larry.

I am a little concerned that the mic part of the trinity can become problematic if the volumes have to get too loud.

I also like the tuner option on the Aura, but have read the same thing - the Aura is designed for UST's and I'm not a fan of them.

So maybe it's a K&K mini along with a Baggs Venue or other DI/Pre I'm looking for.

Hi sd...
I mix the mic on my guitars at about 60% and the pickup at 40%, and don't have problems on stage. I do use a stage amp directly behind me about waist level, and never allow my guitar to put it in my floor monitor in front of me.

The only time I have had feedback issues is if a sound tech wants to really pump the bass in the house and is running insane levels out front. Then I pop in my feedback buster or Lutehole suppressor and it solves it.

If you decide you want an Aura you really would need to consider an under saddle piezo, and that's a whole different ball game. Plus it is really a pickup mixed with a guitar modeler, not strictly a pickup.

The K&K Pure Western Mini mixes well with lots of preamps including the Venue (according to Doug Young). I've run them with about every other common preamp under the sun and they work very well.

Hope this helps...

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by studiodunn

Thanks Larry.

I am a little concerned that the mic part of the trinity can become problematic if the volumes have to get too loud.

I also like the tuner option on the Aura, but have read the same thing - the Aura is designed for UST's and I'm not a fan of them.

So maybe it's a K&K mini along with a Baggs Venue or other DI/Pre I'm looking for.

The fact that the Aura gets its signal from a UST is not an issue. It's just a signal as far as the Aura imaging system is concerned, but more to the point it designed specifically to work with it. You need to understand the core technology wrt the Aura imaging system, it's based on high quality digital modelling (dirty words around here I know) and it works very well, producing a stunningly accurate mic'd up 'image' from a choice of four guitar/mic combinations.

FWIW, here's the Fishman write up about the system. I'm sure you've seen it, but anyway..

The Ellipse Aura® combines Fishman’s most sophisticated onboard preamp design with the power of Aura® Acoustic Imaging Technology for exceptional accuracy and true to life sound. Ellipse Aura allows acoustic musicians to easily and accurately reproduce the sound of their instrument as miked in a professional studio.

Load up to four Aura Images into this intuitive, discreetly mounted preamp.

The ergonomic soundhole-mounted design puts slider controls at the player’s fingertips to maintain a natural playing position.

The Ellipse Aura features Pickup/Image Blend, Volume and switchable Natural I and Natural II low frequency tone shaping, a Phase Switch and automatic Anti-Feedback control.

FWIW, I am currently fitting a JJB (same thing as a K&K mini) and an Aura system to different guitars. But if I could afford it, I'd fit the Aura to both. It's a more expensive, more sophisticated system that will exhibit greater accuracy wrt a mic'd sound - that is the goal of Aura, whilst 'simple' pickups will always, to some extent, sound like a pickup.

[mchalebk]

From the Aura Spectrum User Guide:

Aura Acoustic Imaging processors sound best when used with Fishman undersaddle pickups and magnetic soundhole pickups. When we record each instrument, we use our Acoustic Matrix undersaddle pickup. So, when you play through an Aura processor, you’ll get the best results using our Acoustic Matrix pickup. We do not recommend soundboard-mounted pickups, bridge-plate pickups, multi-sensor pickups or microphones for Aura products since they include unnecessary resonances that can interfere with the Aura processing.

Yes, Aura will work with an SBT like the K&K, but there are good reasons why it works much better with USTs. USTs tend to provide much simpler signals than USTs. Specifically, they carry mostly string information. SBTs carry a lot more body information. While some people have had success using Aura or a D-TAR Mama Bear with SBTs, in general they do not provide satisfactory results.

[studiodunn]

Yeah, it looks like I'm asking the wrong question and ultimately one of sound preference, which has no right answer.

It looks like what I'm between are:
- A matrix system - either the ellipse or UST and Aura pedal

- K&K mini with a radial or Baggs outboard pedal.
I get the feeling I could be happy and work with either set-ups tone.

I really don't want to add any on-board gear to the guitar so I'm leaning away from the Ellipse. I think I would rather adjust and EQ at a pedal.
I also really like having a tuner on the pedal as opposed to clamping a snark on the guitar.

I get the feeling the K&K will produce a more natural and maybe less detailed tone compared to a UST system. I have to admit I'm a bit biased away from a UST system only because of old experiences that didn't represent where the technology is today.
I do also hear allot of recommendations for the K&K around the bluegrass circles, but with Martin using the Aura systems I'm not sure that isn't sure to change.

I wish I could find a same guitar comparison of both systems......me and everybody else I'm sure

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

From the Aura Spectrum User Guide:
…Yes, Aura will work with an SBT like the K&K, but there are good reasons why it works much better with USTs. USTs tend to provide much simpler signals than USTs. Specifically, they carry mostly string information. SBTs carry a lot more body information. While some people have had success using Aura or a D-TAR Mama Bear with SBTs, in general they do not provide satisfactory results.

Evidently Fishman cannot make up their mind:

From the Fishman Aura user manual:

Originally Posted by Fishman Manual

4 Input
Input Requirements
Use a so-called “string-sensitive” pickup on your instrument.

For acoustic guitar this means an undersaddle pickup or a magnetic soundhole pickup.

The Aura will not perform well with soundboard type pickups, such as the Fishman SBT or any other pickup that locates on the soundboard, away from the bridge. If your pickup system has a microphone, turn it off.

[Duncan121]

I won't sway you one way or the other..I have K&K in a guitar that I love the sound of when I play singer somgwriter style gigs. I also have an Aura Spectrum pedal I use with a guitar that has a Matrix Infinity in it. I love both sounds for different reasons. The Aura does allow me to get really loud in a full band setting where I'm competing with drums. I also know there are a lot of bluegrass guys who use the Aura pedals..One convinced me to go the Aura pedal rout a couple of years ago..David Mayfield who at the time was playing it with his Collings in the band Caddillac Sky.

Personal preference only statement...I enjoy the K&K better for guitars I play in mellow quieter venues and settings..I like the Aura much better for loud gigs.

[David Youngman]

Originally Posted by studiodunn

Thanks Larry.

I am a little concerned that the mic part of the trinity can become problematic if the volumes have to get too loud.

I also like the tuner option on the Aura, but have read the same thing - the Aura is designed for UST's and I'm not a fan of them.

So maybe it's a K&K mini along with a Baggs Venue or other DI/Pre I'm looking for.

I've got the Trinity and vary the levels of the SBT and mic depending on the situation. That's what's great about it. The mic offers a good natural sound. The SBT has a pretty good natural sound as well (not as good as the mic). So I shoot for as much mic as I can without feetback problems and then use the SBT to fill in what the mic can't do. I also have started to cut the bass freguencies on the mic as those are the typical feedback problems. This allows me to use more mic in the mix.

This setup is rather new to me and I'm still experimenting but I really like it. I'm blending the Trinity in a DTAR Solstice.

[Eddy G]

I had a problem trying to use my Aura Spectrum DI box with a K& K pure mini pickup, I just couldn't get the tone I wanted, EQs were very delicate and fragile and i had boomy D and A strings. I had to spend way too much effort trying to EQ everything. I finally put in a Fishman undersaddle pick up and now it sounds great through the Aura, they really are designed for an under saddle pick up. Now i have easy control over my tone and the Aura does just what it's supposed to do.

[studiodunn]

Thanks for all the advice.

I'm going with a pure mini, picked up a para DI and will start there. A venue and radial pedal are on my short list.

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by studiodunn

?.. .I also really like having a tuner on the pedal as opposed to clamping a snark on the guitar ...

I'm a real tuning fanatic and have tried lots of headstock clip-ons. I recently got the new Planet Waves mini clamp-on tuner and my worries about its accuracy are gone. I love it. It's nearly invisible and remains on my Hoffman's headstock even when in the case. Try one out.