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  #61  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:15 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Let's Just LISTEN to Doug's Multi-Source For Reference

Aloha,

To Lou and other multi-source doubters here, just Listen Up - literally!

We've all chimed in here ad nauseum. But what's really lacking is an audio reference/sample as to what we're all talking about when we say multi-source amplification systems work so much better for acoustic guitars than ANY single pickup.

We can intellectualize this topic (and we've tried here) to death. But Doug Young has provided a wonderful LISTEN for us. The sound is worth much more than the thousands of words spent on this topic this week, that's for sure.

It's his own beautiful song, "MIssing You," played on a very nice Cedar/Koa Ryan and played through a K&K mini/Magmic Soundhole PU/Stereo Schoeps CMC641 Hyper mics tri-combo. If you haven't heard this kind of recorded or amplified acoustic guitar sound before then you're in for a treat - and a lesson. A the man can really play with such feeling. Bravo, Doug!

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Bbgucd7K4

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 09-10-2009 at 10:21 PM.
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  #62  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:52 PM
geokie8 geokie8 is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
I happen to know donh.

My take on what he said is that its possible, with a knowledgeable approach, to get adequate feedback-free volume for most performance situations with a single-source, mini-Pure equipped guitar. Whether or not that's true, I don't think he was finding fault with the fact that some of us simply prefer the sound of a dual system.

Gary
That was my take as well. I think he was aiming for clever and hooked it too close to arrogant.

I have a K&K PMW with an internal AKG mic. Nobody thinks the sound of the K&K by itself is superior to the blended sound. Could I get by with just the K&K? Yeah, it's very solid. Before I installed the mic, I once played a backing track for a choir and the guy who mixed everything down said my guitar was the only thing in the mix that didn't require any EQ or other tweak. (It certainly helps to have it running through an SPS-1).

As good as that might sound, the mic adds a shimmer (presence? sparkle?) on the top that the K&K just can't provide on its own.

FWIW,

geokie8
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  #63  
Old 09-11-2009, 11:27 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default I agree Geokie

Aloha,

I'm with you on the K&K mini/AKG 416 internal mic/Pendulum SPS-1 combo.

I can't believe that so many players and posters here don't even know how good that sounds? Or somehow think it's unaffordable.

Guys, the natural acoustic guitar sound quality and flexibility of that combo is unbeatable - at least it is to this old giggers ears through my three smaller bodied koa guitars. It's everything they can sound like - there fullest amplified potential unleashed.

Check it out! Try it!

The K&K mini is under $100. You can find used AKG 416's (not made anymore) for $150. And you can find Pendulum SPS-1's for around $1200 used.

For $1500, you get the most natural dual source amplified sound you can find. Surely paying an equal amount for great amplification is worth the cost of your guitar? Isn't it?

alohachris

PS: Eh, check out Doug Young's playing and amazing tri-source sound in the my post above.
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  #64  
Old 09-12-2009, 12:18 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
PS: Eh, check out Doug Young's playing and amazing tri-source sound in the my post above.
Chris, thanks for the kudos, but I'm not sure that video is a fair example. I don't really remember exactly what I did on that one, but I'm pretty sure the sound is mostly mic (the schoeps), with just a touch of pickup in it, just to add some oomph for You Tube. A fairer multi-source example is #85 (K&K+MagMic) or #86 (K&K/MagMic/DPA4099) on my pickup page. These are blended the way I'd normally use the setup live, with a relatively small amount of mic.
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  #65  
Old 09-12-2009, 06:25 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by geokie8 View Post
As good as that might sound, the mic adds a shimmer (presence? sparkle?) on the top that the K&K just can't provide on its own.
Its interesting to note that the K&K folks are claiming that their (relatively) new Progression tube preamp can be used to add a high-end shimmer similar to what's added with a mic. That's the claim, at least.

Here are the relevent claims from the K&K product page:

"In addition to the warm sound tubes are known for, their biggest advantage is the extremely natural high-end response, provided they are driven by high voltage. With the Progression you can actually boost treble in an elegant way. Unlike solid-state circuits, which tend to sound synthetic if treble response is pushed, the Progression adds a special shimmer plus the warmth only a true tube circuit can produce. It almost sounds like adding a quality microphone but without the feedback headache of using one. Finger stylists will love it! In fact, anyone who tested the prototypes here at K&K showed the same reaction – I want it and I want it now!"

Gary

Last edited by guitaniac; 09-12-2009 at 06:47 AM.
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  #66  
Old 09-12-2009, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
...For $1500, you get the most natural dual source amplified sound you can find. Surely paying an equal amount for great amplification is worth the cost of your guitar? Isn't it?
Hi Chris...
I think most players will opt for far less than $1500 for pickup & preamp, and another $1500 for an amp.

Unless professionally playing, $3000 is a sizeable investment for the average musician to consider spending on their amplification rig. In fact, even if one is playing professionally it's a large chunk-o-cash.

Even though I play about 150 times a year, my total road-rig tips the scales at under $800 (including the dual source pickup and mic in my guitar). To replace it in today's dollars would cost me $900.

The audience doesn't notice the difference and I can certainly live with the level of quality and portability I enjoy and feel it represents my playing well.


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  #67  
Old 09-12-2009, 08:26 AM
Lou777 Lou777 is offline
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Hi Guys

remember me?

I never thought this question would get so many responses. I had my question answered and way more. I am very pleased and thankful to all who weighed in.

I just installed my K&K PWM. It was not too hard. I did manage to chip a tiny piece of finish drilling out the hole for the jack. So now my 199.99 guitar has lost 10.00 resale value.

I can only play it through my brother's Cube 30 but it works. The lows sound good but the highs have and electric guitar sound to them. I will get my Ultrasound AG-30 Monday night.

I am just starting to play out at some very small church group things. So for now I will not have to worry about the need for a dual system. If I come across some disposable income someday, I would like to do the K&K Trinity add on. For now I will mostly play at home so I am happy with just the mini alone.

Thanks again to all.
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Last edited by Lou777; 09-12-2009 at 10:55 AM.
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  #68  
Old 09-12-2009, 08:35 AM
Lou777 Lou777 is offline
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The audience doesn't notice the difference and I can certainly live with the level of quality and portability I enjoy and feel it represents my playing well.
Hi Larry, you got in there when I was typing my update. I would agree, here people tend to be searching to please themselves and othe guitar folks.

I remember when I was a Chef I would hate to put food out the wasn't perfect by my standards, all the while knowing that most people don't have a clue what good is. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone.
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  #69  
Old 09-12-2009, 09:30 AM
66strummer 66strummer is offline
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Originally Posted by Lou777 View Post
Hi Guys

remember me?

I never thought this question would get so many responses. I had my question answered and way more. I am very pleased and thankful to all who weighed in.

I just installed my K&K PWM. It was not too hard. I did manage to chip a tiny piece of finish drilling out the hole for the jack. So now my 199.99 guitar has lost 10.00 resale value.

I can only paly it through my brother's Cube 30 but it works. The lows sound good but the highs have and electric guitar sound to them. I will get my Ultrasound AG-30 Monday night.

I am just starting to play out at some very small church group things. So for now I will not have to worry about the need for a dual system. If I come across some disposable income someday, I would like to do the K&K Trinity add on. For now I will mostly play at home so I am happy with just the mini alone.

Thanks again to all.


Congrats, Lou.....

Glad it worked out for you. I hope the washer on the endpin covers over your "chip". Did that on 1 install myself. Luckily it was a cheap guitar. I'm sure the pickup will sound much better through your new acoustic amp. Enjoy!
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  #70  
Old 09-12-2009, 10:56 AM
Lou777 Lou777 is offline
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Thanks Ryan
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  #71  
Old 09-12-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lou777 View Post
...I remember when I was a Chef I would hate to put food out the wasn't perfect by my standards, all the while knowing that most people don't have a clue what good is. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone.
Hi Lou...
I roast my own coffee, and take pains to get the best beans and the best profile to go with them, and then still hand tend the roasts fairly closely. Have done it for a decade.

My wife calls me a coffee snob because I won't drink coffee at restaurants or other people's houses if it's bad. I tell her I'd only qualify as a snob if I either put them down when offered coffee or if I tried to convert them on the spot.

I personally think small simple rigs like yours do a great job. By the way, your XLR out on the AG-30 will work with the snake at church and provide a great (and clean) signal.

Some of us here are not rig-snobs, some are. I personally enjoy listening to others play and don't even comment on their rigs unless they ask how they can get better sound like mine. Then I suggest things...

Also, if you add an external preamp, the highs get cleaner and more obvious (and less electric).
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  #72  
Old 09-12-2009, 11:38 AM
Lou777 Lou777 is offline
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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Lou...
I roast my own coffee, and take pains to get the best beans and the best profile to go with them, and then still hand tend the roasts fairly closely. Have done it for a decade.

My wife calls me a coffee snob because I won't drink coffee at restaurants or other people's houses if it's bad. I tell her I'd only qualify as a snob if I either put them down when offered coffee or if I tried to convert them on the spot.

I personally think small simple rigs like yours do a great job. By the way, your XLR out on the AG-30 will work with the snake at church and provide a great (and clean) signal.

Some of us here are not rig-snobs, some are. I personally enjoy listening to others play and don't even comment on their rigs unless they ask how they can get better sound like mine. Then I suggest things...

Also, if you add an external preamp, the highs get cleaner and more obvious (and less electric).
Thanks Larry

Someday I will ask about a preamp. Right now I don't want to know. I will only spend more money.


Lou
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  #73  
Old 12-11-2009, 07:24 PM
jcwu jcwu is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
For $1500, you get the most natural dual source amplified sound you can find.
I'd love to have the most natural amplified sound I can find. I really would.

But blowing a month's income for that... hard to justify to the wife and kids who'd go hungry.

Just throwing in the possibility that some of us don't do this professionally and really can't some of the gear being discussed.

But ... I think what ends up happening is most of us that are chasing tone try out different cheaper solutions, and end up spending close to $1500 when all is said and done anyways.
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  #74  
Old 12-12-2009, 01:06 AM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default JCWU - That Sound Exists - That's All You Have To Know!

Aloha JCWU,

All I try to do here is pass along what I've learned from 45 years of paid gigging experience. That's it. It's just an opinion, nothing more. Reject it, try it out, I don't care. But not many on this site have been getting paid to play almost nightly for nearly half a century.

For most of my decades of gigging, I tried to get by on the cheap. It wasn't til three+ years ago that I returned to the audio amplification world to find out what was currently available - at all levels - and I asked many, many questions, opinions and acted quite slowly and carefully to achieve my dream LIVE rig. Other posters dream rigs are different. Viva la difference!

What I've learned recently is that there is a definite correlation between the money you spend on amplification, and the result. And I've tried 'em all! Everything that has come down the pike since the late 60's.

My current rig: K&K mini/AKG 416 internal mics combos in three gigging guitars, Pendulum SPS-1 preamp, TC Electronics M2000 dual engine stereo FX unit, Parasound 2125 power amp, and custom Koa Daedalus W803 speakers was planned, works together great electronically and practically, doesn't fight against itself and provides the natural tone and sound, room control and flexibility I need to get the sounds I'm after for my live gigs. It's the most natural sound from an acoustic guitar and my voice that I have ever heard in a live rig.

It's not the only way to go and it does cost more than most are willing to pay for that kind of sound. I offer it as only one example of how to go. You may choose to go with just a guitar, pickup, vocal mic and a soloamp - fine! If you're not doing it for income, then don't even use any amplification at all because it's not necessary. Just use a condenser mic at most and an amp of some kind. Who cares?

I offer it here because it works for me, period. I offer it, because unless you know what's available out there for live amplification - at all pricing levels - then you're working in the dark. I try to shed light on your search, that's it.

In the end, the main thing I'm saying is to educate yourself about how signal chains work together - before you buy - so you can actually save lots of money in the long and short runs and get the results you're looking for. If you're just trying things out, throwing them together like too many do and hoping - then that's not eduating yourself about the possibilities - of YOU & YOUR MUSIC!

alohachris

PS: Example: I just researched, pieced together and bought a great, integrated recording signal chain after researching ALL of 'em for over two years. Literally - every DAW on the market! As I write, I'm downloading Logic Pro 9 on my new iMac i7 quad. I put the time in so I wouldn't make a costly mistake -I have no time left for that at 60! I suggest you do the same as you put any kind of rig together - at any cost. And pay attention to what Sdelsolray has to say here. His questions and info are ALWAYS spot on. He knows more and can express better the options available more than anyone else here, IMO. - alohachris-

Last edited by alohachris; 12-12-2009 at 01:14 AM.
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  #75  
Old 12-12-2009, 07:03 AM
Mike_A Mike_A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou777 View Post
Hi Guys

remember me?

I never thought this question would get so many responses. I had my question answered and way more. I am very pleased and thankful to all who weighed in.

I just installed my K&K PWM. It was not too hard. I did manage to chip a tiny piece of finish drilling out the hole for the jack. So now my 199.99 guitar has lost 10.00 resale value.

I can only play it through my brother's Cube 30 but it works. The lows sound good but the highs have and electric guitar sound to them. I will get my Ultrasound AG-30 Monday night.

I am just starting to play out at some very small church group things. So for now I will not have to worry about the need for a dual system. If I come across some disposable income someday, I would like to do the K&K Trinity add on. For now I will mostly play at home so I am happy with just the mini alone.

Thanks again to all.
congratulations Lou! i've been in the same boat as you a few years back when I started to get serious about amplifying my 200 dollar ibanez. at first I had a soundhole mag (dimarzio) then eventually drilled an endpin myself to mount internally (instead of wires hanging out of soundhole). after watching Don Alder use a guitar with two endpins...i fancied dual source and installed a DTAR sadducer (UST) to a second endpin. i found the UST so much to my liking that I rarely use the dimarzio now. in the future i might buy a blending preamp like a solstice or setup an internal mic but now im just happy using either the soundhole or UST.

anyway, there will always be a better pickup system out there but if you are happy with the K&K alone, then you have attained your goal! congratulations
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