The original Pete Seeger model 12 string guitar

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by 12 string

The "Bitter and the Sweet" LP shows an original G.S. Francis guitar. The guitar that Gerlach gave or sold to Pete (I don't think he made it) looks more like a bajo sexto. You can see photos of it in some old Folkways liner notes. Both guitars can be seen in various episodes of the "Rainbow Quest" TV series from the mid '60s.

I stand corrected on the cover pic. I know that Gerlach made his own 12-strings and had read in an interview from way back that Pete lobbied Fred to sell him one.

Side note: Fred starting building the Stick for Emmet Chapman at some point.

[12 string]

RR, I'm not 100% sure if that beaten-up bajo-looking thing is the actual guitar that Fred provided to Seeger, (I'm familiar with that story, too) but it's the only 12 string I've seen Pete playing in photos and videos which predate the Stan Francis guitar(s).

The last time I saw Fred it was in the mountains near Yosemite, somewhere around Oakhurst or Mariposa. He had 2 monsterous guitars, nice looking huge dreads if I recall. He referred to them as "contrabass 12 strings". He was old, tough as nails, and he sure could still play. He was full of funny and sardonic humor. He talked about how Dick Rosmini was hired to play in the soundtrack of the "Leadbelly" movie. Fred said his next recording was going to called "Green Corn and Sour Grapes" (it was never completed). This was also the last time I ever saw the DeWitts, Bob and Doi.

When you referred to him as "the late" Fred Gerlach I wondered about this because in April of '09 someone at the 12 String Cafe reported on his death and I knew it wasn't so because I had just talked to his wife on the phone only a couple of days before. But this time a little googling confirmed that he passed away this last January. RIP.

Well, we veered away from the Pete Seeger guitar a little bit here, but it's all related, it's all good. Thanks.

' Strang

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by 12 string

................He talked about how Dick Rosmini was hired to play in the soundtrack of the "Leadbelly" movie............

Originally, 3 players were hired by composer Fred Karlin, to play on that soundtrack - Fred, Dick Rosmini, & David Cohen. The folklore is that Gerlach balked at alterations Karlin wanted made to the historical Leadbelly repertoire and was not called back after the 1st recording sessions.

[12 string]

Brownie McGhee was in there too and there are even a few fleeting close-ups of Brownie's hands.

You're right though. I like the movie, but there is nothing in there even remotely like Lead Belly's music, and Fred sure could have done it.

[Tacksman]

I came across this thread by chance, and thought I might add an interesting little twist.

The Stan Francis guitar that Pete got was actually his long scale design being made for Davey Speirs, a Scottish folk singer from Paisley.

Stan called him and said that Pete Seeger wanted a guitar like the one he was making for Davey, so could he sell his to Pete to save him waiting, and Davey could have the one he would have made for Pete.

Davey liked the idea and the fact he could say that he had Pete Seeger's guitar and Pete had his. I've played it also, so I suppose I could say I'd played Pete's guitar too! I can't remember if the guitar features on the album recorded in 1969:

http://www.discogs.com/Davey-Speirs-...elease/3568419

but I recorded him playing it and singing some favourites, back in the late 80s.

Davey used to tune it to open C and play a lot of bluesy things on it, with and without slide. It had a really powerful sound.

And was BIG!

[12 string]

That's really very interesting. Thanks. And welcome to the AGF!>

' Strang

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by 12 string

The "Bitter and the Sweet" LP shows an original G.S. Francis guitar. The guitar that Gerlach gave or sold to Pete (I don't think he made it) looks more like a bajo sexto. You can see photos of it in some old Folkways liner notes. Both guitars can be seen in various episodes of the "Rainbow Quest" TV series from the mid '60s.

I was taking lessons at McCabe's guitar shop in Santa Monica California in the early 1960's Fred Gerlach was a regular there and taught 12 string guitar from time to time. He also was a wood dealer and built several guitars that I saw when I was there. I don't know what the relationship was with him and Seeger but I do know that he was building guitars at that time.

They were really huge with a heart-shaped sound hole and he tuned them very, very low with heavy bronze strings. He was a wonderful player.

[12 string]

Originally Posted by mick n

Thank you 12 string for this fantastic post with the drawings. I've got one of the originals by Stan Francis from 1964. If there are any others around I'd love to see them.

As you might imagine there was dicussion along these lines at the 12 String Cafe and Mick posted some pics:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...r-J12SO?page=4

Thank you Mick.

' Strang

[mick n]

The time has come for me to part with my much loved GS Francis 12string. I promised my wife that on retirement from full time work that I would downsize the collection and take her on a great holiday to compensate for the years she has put up with my talentless playing with damaged fingers and one working ear. I can put the others on eBay and not worry about achieving an honest price but this one is different and I have no idea how to sell it. It is of course a great guitar but also a piece of history. I had it valued by a respected luthier (made my jaw drop) but I have never sold anything like this before. If I could afford to do so I would willingly fly to USA and give it to Mr Seeger to replace the one he had, unfortunately I am not that wealthy and well, promises have to be kept..
Any advice you guys can offer would be really welcome. Mick

[Georgef]

Just curious where in CT you grew up, I was a child in Redding CT and went to Wooster in Danbury 1967 (Headmaster was Ben Verdery the classical guitarist's dad).. My 12 string collection is small but good - Gibson b45-12 (reworked neck by Mike Millard of Froggy Bottom Guitars) and Franklin Koa 12 built beside Stefan Grossman's by Nick (Kukick) and accidentally shipped to me in Stefan's Calton case by Nick so the number 2 Franklin 12 ever built and the only one with graphite neck rods!

[Scaramouche]

I have read somewhere that all these original Francis 12 strings failed structurally. Whatever happened they are not all broken. i have kept this one for twenty years or so. https://sites.google.com/site/electrumusic/kids

[Long Jon]

A lot of great 12's seem to have been made by English luthiers of the 60's.
e.g Tony Zematis .

Here's one of his played by a charming American gentleman. (Pete Seeger he ain't though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOyky6phb6Q

[jeffa]

Hi, I came across this thread and found it interesting, I am Stans son in law, his real name is George Stanley Francis but as usual he got called Stan. We talked about this thread and Stan got his cards with all the details of who he made instruments for, the date, where they were made and where they went [country]
Don't know where the tale about his 12 strings failing came from but doubt its true,
I have no interest in guitars myself but do appreciate the skill that goes into making them, he made 2 guitars in 2000, one for each daughter pam and andrea
Stan is in reasonable health and still is as sharp as a button, he still has a jamming session with his friends now and again

[12 string]

Wow, that is so cool. And welcome aboard, by the way.

I would sure love to know more about the top bracing pattern and the origin of the triangular sound hole. I think it was Mick Nolan who wrote of a connection between the two, that the sound hole is shaped to accommodate the bracing.

Regards to your father-in-law.

' Strang

[jeffa]

I talked to Stan today and he tells me the reason for the sound hole shape was indeed to allow the bracing struts to form a V shape instead of 2 horizontal struts, he also said this fan strut arrangement gave a greater area for vibration, i hope this makes sense as i know nothing about guitars,banjos and mandelins all of which Stan has made among other stringed instuments i dont know the name of. My wife and i have just bought the house opposite Stan and June but we at the moment live quite away from them, if any questions need answering about his insruments i will do my best to find out and reply, please be patient