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  #16  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:55 AM
N+1 N+1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
OK, so I will suggest it's like letting air out of your tyres to make your car lower to the ground.
Well, now that would work!! - but I'd still raise an eyebrow at the analogy.

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  #17  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:59 AM
Edgar Poe Edgar Poe is offline
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Tightening the truss rod will raise the action. But not what the truss rod is designed for. Also loosen the strings before adjusting truss rod.

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  #18  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by fazool View Post
OK, so I will suggest it's like letting air out of your tyres to make your car lower to the ground.
... wait ... so, lower psi equals less neck relief?
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  #19  
Old 12-09-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Edgar Poe View Post
Tightening the truss rod will raise the action. But not what the truss rod is designed for. Also loosen the strings before adjusting truss rod.

Ed
That depends on the truss rod but most consider tightening to take out relief which would lower the action. One could 'tighten' a double action rod in the opposite way to raise it though.
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  #20  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:45 PM
calstang66 calstang66 is offline
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Visual assessment of "relief" is not acceptabe, unless I'm quite experienced, correct?

So how do I measure "relief" to be in an acceptable range?

Thanks to all for great education. It seems the bottom line is this:
Use the truss rod to set the "relief" at between 0.003" to 0.010".
Then adjust action by adjustments to saddle and/or nut grooves.
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  #21  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by calstang66 View Post
Visual assessment of "relief" is not acceptabe, unless I'm quite experienced, correct?

So how do I measure "relief" to be in an acceptable range?

Thanks to all for great education. It seems the bottom line is this:
Use the truss rod to set the "relief" at between 0.003" to 0.010".
Then adjust action by adjustments to saddle and/or nut grooves.
Taylor (just one) recommendation is .007" measured at the 6th fret.
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:54 PM
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I've been doing it 'visually' for 25 years. Use the string as a straight edge and fret the first fret, or put a capo on it then fret the body fret and look for some airspace in the middle. Should just be a little bit.

The best chefs in the world don't measure a 1/4 teaspoon of salt either

If you do like to measure things then just use feeler gauges. .015 is what I generally like.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2018, 03:50 PM
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>> I've been doing it 'visually' for 25 years.

Redir,

I'm sure you know what you're doing, but I don't find the "I've always done it this way" argument very convincing. I was playing in a C&W band once and the singer/bass player wanted to play the bridge of Crazy as IV #IVmin I. When I said the 2nd chord should be #IVdim7, I got the "I've been doing it that way for 20 years" bit. Just one of my pet peeves.
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:03 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post

If you do like to measure things then just use feeler gauges. .015 is what I generally like.
You do surprise me , redir.

IME most people are looking for around half that amount of relief. Although of course it depends on how high they like their action as well.
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  #25  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calstang66 View Post
It seems the bottom line is this:
Use the truss rod to set the "relief" at between 0.003" to 0.010".
Then adjust action by adjustments to saddle and/or nut grooves.
Yes, but if the relief is set at 0.003", the action will probably be significantly lower than if the relief were set at 0.010". This is what I mean about the wiggle room. If you can get the relief down (from whatever it currently is) to 0.003" without buzz, you'll achieve the happy result of bringing the action down too - if that's what you want.
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
I also do not subscribe to the idea that the truss rod doesn't adjust the action, it does. But it does so by adjusting the relief. If you have too much bow in the neck, too much relief, then use the truss rod to set the relief properly and voila! You have also lowered the action. But if your relief is set properly then it's a bad idea to lower the action using the truss rod.
I feel terminology’s are at play here.

Adjusting relief will increase or decrease the arc of the neck in respect to the string line, adjusting relief can have an effect on the string height but does not lower the action but it can alter the action.

Example pre adjustment, 5 thou clearance at nut 50 thou clearance at 7th fret, 60 thou clearance at 12th fret, adjusting the truss rod, this can become 5/30/55, it’s most effective point of difference is around the 7th fret with adjustments.

Action is a relationship between the stringline and the neck at all fretted locations.

Example a persons action may be 5 thou string clearance at the 1st fret, 35 thou at the 7th, 60 thou at the 12 th fret, lowering the action vee the saddle, still closely maintains the original relationship at all fret locations albeit lower, now with a saddle tweak it’s 4.5/30/55, the exact same relationship is still there just lower, this is IMO a lowering of the action.

Setting the action up to start with, is with respect to all parts, truss rod adjustment, nut height, saddle height. However once these parameters have been set and identified for that customer, this is now their action, raising or lowering their action is subject to nut or saddle tweaks

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Last edited by mirwa; 12-09-2018 at 06:16 PM.
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
You do surprise me , redir.

IME most people are looking for around half that amount of relief. Although of course it depends on how high they like their action as well.
I mean to say that is my personal preference. I hit the strings hard. But I also like to have the low-E at about 1/8th at the 12th fret too.

---

This seems to be one of those arguments that devolves into semantics for the most part. I guess for us luthiers 'action' is defined by the setup of the saddle and the nut when there is proper relief. IOW relief is left out of the action equation. I just consider it another variable. Especially where repair is concerned.

---

How does one even measure .007? I've got the feeler gauges but to what degree of accuracy can a human using feel gauges really get? Maybe I just suck at using them but I would never trust myself to measure a string hovering over a fret to that degree. I do believe however that the eye is very sensitive to small changes, so that's what I go for. Kind of the same way I set up the nut, back fret the 3rd fret so that their is a hair of air space over the first... Done. No gauges, and I've tried to do that too.
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2018, 07:35 PM
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The human eye can spot 5 thousands of an inch with ease in a comparative setup.

Looking at a gap with known variables, the brain fills the blanks. You know the Treble E string is 12 or 13 thou thick, you know the Bass E string is 54 or 56 thou thick, looking at a gap with these known variables you can approximate with pretty good accuracy.

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  #29  
Old 12-09-2018, 07:43 PM
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>> How does one even measure .007?

I use paper of known thickness.
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:11 PM
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There is an ideal relief for a given action height, and it is different for each string. My specialty is low to medium action. On a low action set up (1.8/32 x 2.6/32 at the 13th barred at the first) ideal relief is not visible on the high e string when stopped at 1 and 20, but can be discerned audibly by tapping on it mid-fingerboard. No click=too flat, visible gap=too high. At the same time, low E stopped at 1 and 20 should have 1/3rd to 1/2 the thickness of the high string visible around the 6 to 8th fret. The other 4 strings can interpolate these clearances with great success. This is what makes a guitar play GReat. If you so much as wiggle the truss rod the set up is ruined. I no longer ship truss rod wrenches with my guitars because of the number of times I have heard about how badly one of my guitars works, had it shipped to the shop, and found out the customer (or their friend) has messed with the relief. Readjusting the rod returns the playability 9 times out of 10.

Once a new guitar has stabilized to the string tension (not as much as a week), it is the rarest thing for a correctly adjusted truss rod to need further attention unless string gauge is changed. I usually ship my guitars with an extra saddle in the case, slightly higher than the fitted one. IF it turns out that the guitar needs a lower one, the higher one should be altered rather than the fitted one, as it was as close to perfect as I could make it at the humidity level when shipped.

Medium action has slightly more relief, by the way, but only by a couple of thou. Medium strings, on the other hand, can have a slightly lower action but with the same relief . . . Which may require a tiny (10th turn) adjustment on the LMI sourced TRST single action rod I favor.

PLEASE DO NOT ADJUST ACTION WITH THE TRUSS ROD.
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