Two things that I've always struggled with...

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by nwsht

...playing guitar.

I've had a guitar in my life for a very long time. I've been a R&R guy, a metal guy, a solo guy, classical, a strummer, I've learned to sing with reasonable results. I'm not new to music, but two things hold me back:

1.) Back posture and body position. When I took classical guitar classes, I learned to position the guitar on my left leg, left leg raised on a stool, guitar in an upwards position. That's all fine, but over a period of regular practice, it contorts my body. Shoulders become out of square and I have a permanent twist to my body. Try to do real work or something that resembles labor, and I will pull something and end up semi-injured.

2.) Memory. Without chords, tab or lyrics, I am mostly empty. Even if I practice the same piece for weeks on end, the very next day I cannot recite it without a visual aid. This has always been a problem. I'm amazed at folks that can remember 300 songs. I'd be happy remembering 10.

These issues are frustrating. I'm not a bad guitar player at all, and if I could've overcome these issues at some point in my life, I could've been in a band or played out to some degree, which was always the dream.

It's been a good year since I've been really practicing, and I'm a month back into it (new acoustic). I'm wondering why though; I'm older now, and it just doesn't seem worth the while with these same problems.

I have no designs on being anyone other than who I am as a player and a person who doesn't care to memorize anything. I write songs and don't bother remembering them. I record them reading from a lyrics sheet and then, once recorded, never play them again.

I'm a music mercenary. I write/learn something and once satisfied that I accepted and met the challenge I move on to gain the rewards of something else. I have no desire to stay and play in one genre, style, mood or artist.

To me, playing guitar is a series of excursions that are always taking me away from where I was. If I'm played out to the point of boredom in standard tuning and concert pitch, I'll move from there for a good while into another tuning. Then I'll move again.

I've developed my picking hand to such a level of finger independence that I'm not relegated to strict patterns. As a result my left hand follows and the road to anywhere becomes pretty negotiable, musically speaking.

At 60 I'm just beginning to learn how to play guitar in a manner I've always wanted to.

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by nwsht

...playing guitar.

I've had a guitar in my life for a very long time. I've been a R&R guy, a metal guy, a solo guy, classical, a strummer, I've learned to sing with reasonable results. I'm not new to music, but two things hold me back:

1.) Back posture and body position. When I took classical guitar classes, I learned to position the guitar on my left leg, left leg raised on a stool, guitar in an upwards position. That's all fine, but over a period of regular practice, it contorts my body. Shoulders become out of square and I have a permanent twist to my body. Try to do real work or something that resembles labor, and I will pull something and end up semi-injured.

2.) Memory. Without chords, tab or lyrics, I am mostly empty. Even if I practice the same piece for weeks on end, the very next day I cannot recite it without a visual aid. This has always been a problem. I'm amazed at folks that can remember 300 songs. I'd be happy remembering 10.

These issues are frustrating. I'm not a bad guitar player at all, and if I could've overcome these issues at some point in my life, I could've been in a band or played out to some degree, which was always the dream.

It's been a good year since I've been really practicing, and I'm a month back into it (new acoustic). I'm wondering why though; I'm older now, and it just doesn't seem worth the while with these same problems.

My answers to your questions.

no.1 = Stop playing with classical position. Try for example same position what flamenco players use.

no.2 = If you sit down and have honest conversation with Tommy Emmanuel or some other top players who can play a lot of songs and ask how they learn those songs, you will get a good answer. They learn patterns which are repeated over and over but the thing is that you need to learn to understand, play, hear and even sing them.

Common problem with ear players who would like to learn a lot of songs is that they learn the melodies first. Melody is the natural part. Forms are more important for memorizing songs.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by JonPR

It sounds obvious, but this really is about constant repetition, and just trying do without the chart. It's subconscious "muscle memory", not something you should need to consciously recall as you play.
It's easy for the chart to become a crutch, and you need to wean yourself off it. Try it measure by measure. Learn to play bar 1 without the chart. That shouldn't be hard. Then add bar 2.
It will be a slow process, but it's about the physical repetition, more times than you may think is necessary. IOW, it's not enough to just understand the tune, with your conscious intellect.
You know the old advice: practice until you get it right - and then practice some more until you can't get it wrong.

Muscle memory from repetition is necessary for playing the tune fluidly (unless one is a master of technique), but it is not the only kind of memory that is relevant to memorizing the tune. People differ in how they memorize. You might teach your hands the tune so that they play it fluidly every time you read it off the chart or tab, but get stopped without the chart to look at. Or you might have the chart committed to memory, but stumble over technique because you haven't played it enough times. The mental aspect of memorization should not be disregarded.

Studies have shown that memorization goes much faster with a mental effort to memorize in addition to repetition.

[nwsht]

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies!

One thing I am focusing on is trying to go full fingerstyle on a steel string dreadnought, which may or may not be the best idea. If I pull out a classical guitar, a lot of the comfort issues are certainly reduced and the overall quality of what I play increases. On the steel string I struggle with some buzzing, weak notes and bar chords, which I hope to correct to make this transisition. The hard part is going back so far that it looks like I'm starting over. Pride you know.

stranon: I'm very used to playing standing up with an electric, but strung low to get the optimal heavey metal foot spread that facilitates proper head bang and hair swing. Time to test a higher strapping.

I don't usually play by ear. If its a strumming singing song, I usually grab the chords/lyrics because I especially need the lyrics. If I'm doing something classical or fingerstyle, I need something to reference. Not so good as a musician, I know.

amyFB: I'm going to try writing things out and see how it goes. Time is certainly limited, and I want to get the most improvement out of my time to see if it's worth my time, but it sounds like it may be very helpful.

Silly Moustache: Moving to right leg, feet flat on the floor. Different body tension, but so far so good except for getting the neck angle up.

"c) Learn to sit with the guitar resting on right thigh, with right arm resting on upper bout - that is ALL that should be required to hold the guitar - hands and forearms are for playing only." This is intermittant with the dread. I hit it sometimes and its like the sun poked through the clouds, but it doesn't happen often. I do struggle to keep the guitar in position.

JonPR: Ah; bingo. I cannot play without seeing the fretboard!

Funny thing is, the tunes I'm working on, I have had down at one time or another. In my bouts of guitar playing, I seem to just re-learn the same things I forgot and then take another 12 month break. Come back and repeat. there was a time I was good. Not great, but good.

StringFive: To what end though? I will not be on stage whooing an audience and impressing girls with my heavy metal prowess at this point in my life. I think that was always the point; guitar = girls. Lol.

TomiPaldanius: Moving away from that position for awhile.

I guess what I'm looking at is essentially starting over from scratch.

Thank you again for all the replies!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by nwsht

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies!

One thing I am focusing on is trying to go full fingerstyle on a steel string dreadnought, which may or may not be the best idea.

On classical left leg position, no! (unless you're a really big guy....) No wonder you're getting discomfort.

I suggest putting it on right leg - as advised - but making sure your left hand (and arm and wrist) are at the exact same angle as they were with the guitar on left leg. The guitar neck angle is naturally lower - just a little above horizontal - but your left elbow should still be less than 90 degrees.

The only disadvantage with the right leg position is reaching the highest frets, which necessitates pushing the neck forward. Otherwise, the guitar sits at right angles to your right leg, just as it did on your left leg.

A mid-way alternative (if you like the guitar high and have no strap or thigh rest) is to cross your legs - ideally right over left. Disadvantage: circulation problems if held for too long!

Originally Posted by nwsht

stranon: I'm very used to playing standing up with an electric, but strung low to get the optimal heavey metal foot spread that facilitates proper head bang and hair swing. Time to test a higher strapping.

Yes - or just raise the guitar neck to a higher angle. (You see Jimmy Page and Slash doing this, when playing trickier stuff. Other rock heroes, such as Clapton or Hendrix, strap it higher to start with. B B King had a useful stomach he could rest his on .))

Originally Posted by nwsht

Silly Moustache: Moving to right leg, feet flat on the floor. Different body tension, but so far so good except for getting the neck angle up.

As I say, it doesn't need to be up much, as long as it's back enough. Don't let that elbow straighten too much.

Originally Posted by nwsht

JonPR: Ah; bingo. I cannot play without seeing the fretboard!

Sure you can! Try it, and you may surprise yourself. At least, you should start trying to feel where you are rather than see where you are. It's only when jumping or or down the fretboard to different positions where you may need to check you land in the right place.
Another option - you may need a strap for this - is the Freddie Green position:

- his left wrist is still in a good, relaxed position. OK, thumb over is "wrong" (bad marks, Freddie! ), but you could still barre in this position without bending the wrist too much, AND still see the fretboard!
(Maybe not ideal for fingerstyle, come to think of it... )

[ohYew812]

I rest my guitars on my left knee too. Not sure why... just seems more natural.

Hopefully this isn't important enough that I will eventually have to switch to the right knee... I'm new too.

[SFCRetired]

I second the use of that neckup. I have one I use on occasion.

[Guitars+gems]

Originally Posted by hello people

Well those things can be worked on. I struggle with lack of talenty or musicality or any description.

Nah...I don't believe that. But there is a book on the subject that may interest you, Guitar Zero, The Science of Becoming Musical at Any Age, by Gary Marcus. The author starts out telling how he couldn't even get through a song on Guitar Hero without being booed off the stage!