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  #16  
Old 05-14-2021, 02:39 PM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
David,

It depends upon what YOU want from YOUR playing or musical education. The ideal is to find a teacher who will help you attain what you want from it.
I could not agree more, Charles. The thing is that it can take a while, when you are just starting down the path to figure out where you want to go. You connected with that teacher with a clear goal, and with the underlying skills in place to achieve it. And enviable position.
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2021, 02:53 PM
reeve21 reeve21 is online now
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David, FWIW--I'm no a teacher, but I am a struggling student

My thought is your musical background pre-guitar has given you more than enough theory to do what you want to do. You know how to improvise, and you probably know enough about harmony and chord progressions to handle any composing/songwriting you may want to do on the guitar.

So it seems like the focus is misdirected for your needs. My instructor spent several months building up my dexterity with exercises that he would write out on staff paper--scales, hammers, pull offs, slides, etc. Then we went through this book, starting somewhere near the middle as the first section is absolute beginner stuff. https://www.amazon.com/Mel-Bay-Antho...s=books&sr=1-5

My teacher is classically trained but plays several instruments in many styles. He is also a performing and recording musician, so I was pretty comfortable letting him guide this process. I feel like this work gave me a good foundation in finger-picking. Now I choose the songs, he helps with fingerings and makes a few changes to make them more attainable at my skill level. This is a huge help, especially right now as I'm fixated on learning some piano ragtime music-- which I have decided was never meant to be played on six strings

Hope that helps.
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2021, 03:12 PM
Mandobart Mandobart is online now
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Originally Posted by Deliberate1 View Post
Friends, I have been playing for about two years.... The focus has largely been theory-based - chord structure, transposition, secondary dominants, chord melody, melodic minor modes, etc....

But, after all this time, I find that I can practically use only a small fraction of what I have learned because I am still just trying to get my fingers untied to form chords, or move them fast enough to play or keep up....

So to you teachers, or students of teachers, I would be interested to know what approach you take with new students, and the progression of skills/skillsets you focus on.
I'm not a teacher. I learned guitar in the '70's, when there were far fewer available resources. I was already a classically trained violin player and had recently started learning bluegrass fiddle.

I wanted to play songs I knew and liked on guitar. I bought a couple songbooks - Neil Young "Decade" and the "Eagles Complete.". I still have both of these nearly 50 year old books!

They are laid out for piano with treble and bass clef, lyrics between (like a church hymnal) and guitar chord diagrams above the treble notation, appearing right above the lyric where the chord changes.

I already knew how all these songs were supposed to sound, so it was just a matter of learning how to form the chords using the diagrams and executing the changes at the right time. I started slow, struggled a little, but worked my way through. My strumming pattern was based on how the original record sounded.

If there are any artists you like who have songs you'd like to learn, either get a similar song book or look them up on Google. You can do this on your own or ask your teacher to help. I had a head start with violin, but I was playing a LOT of songs in less than two years this way.
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:15 PM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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I wasted 16 lessons with a person who was a great guitarist but lousy teacher. He could never get down to my level. I got a good basis from Justin Guitar and then took local community college classes. I have another teacher now who I’m ok with. I took a online course and a community college class on music theory.

Funny story is the teacher was trying to teach me a G to C walk down.I kept asking what fret/string.She finally got frustrated and said you know your scales, GABC. Then it hit me. I really did know the fret board and easily figured out the walk down.

Right now I’m learning classical guitar and reading music. I’ve also have take n lessons in blues and fingerpicking.

My friend laughs and says most guitarist learn 5 chords. You are becoming one learned guitarist especially after only a year.

I’m still looking for that magical teacher.
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2021, 05:17 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Like so many other relationships, teacher and student need to be matched.

When it is a mismatch, then it will be frustrating for one or both and progress will be slow.

It sounds like you need to move on and find a different teacher. It's not that they are at fault, nor you - but your needs have altered and you need to pay attention to that.

Tell a prospective teacher that you enjoy theory, but struggle to put it into musical practice on guitar, thereby making it hard to retain the theory.
There will be someone who knows exactly what you describe and has a plan that has helped others over this obstacle.

So much of playing music is mechanical skills and muscle memory. It is so attractive to think one can 'hack' their way via theory to shortcut that work. It never works.
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  #21  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:18 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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It sounds like you need to move on and find a different teacher.
It sounds to me like the OP should have a discussion with his current teacher to express where the OP wants to go and how his current teacher can help him get there. If his current teacher can't, then, I agree, it is time for a different teacher.

Quote:
So much of playing music is mechanical skills and muscle memory. It is so attractive to think one can 'hack' their way via theory to shortcut that work. It never works.
While I agree that the mechanical part of playing is heavily reliant upon muscle memory, theory can have a very important role in learning music, regardless of one's chosen instrument. Theory, as well as ear training, identifies and labels patterns that, once identified, can be recognized when heard and save considerable amount of time, as opposed to music being some random series of events or occurrences without rhyme or reason. As a simple example, knowing sufficient theory to understand a I, IV, V progression, and knowing enough about musical form, one knows from the onset what comprises the basics of playing just about any "classic" blues tune. If someone says, "Blues in E", you already know the chords and the structure of what to play and when to play it. You still have to know how to play those chords and be sufficiently fluent to do so, the mechanical part.
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  #22  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:46 PM
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For a time in the early 1970's I took private classical guitar lessons from David Grimes. https://www.guitarfoundation.org/page/HoFGrimes
I had already played guitar a few years by the time I did that.

In that particular venue lessons were focused on using proper technique and on learning actual pieces of music. Not much at all on theory
(though I did have fifteen years of playing piano behind me and theory learning involved in that). That approach made the most sense to
me and kept me motivated to keep working on increasing my repertoire.
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  #23  
Old 05-15-2021, 02:21 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
It sounds to me like the OP should have a discussion with his current teacher to express where the OP wants to go and how his current teacher can help him get there. If his current teacher can't, then, I agree, it is time for a different teacher.



While I agree that the mechanical part of playing is heavily reliant upon muscle memory, theory can have a very important role in learning music, regardless of one's chosen instrument. Theory, as well as ear training, identifies and labels patterns that, once identified, can be recognized when heard and save considerable amount of time, as opposed to music being some random series of events or occurrences without rhyme or reason. As a simple example, knowing sufficient theory to understand a I, IV, V progression, and knowing enough about musical form, one knows from the onset what comprises the basics of playing just about any "classic" blues tune. If someone says, "Blues in E", you already know the chords and the structure of what to play and when to play it. You still have to know how to play those chords and be sufficiently fluent to do so, the mechanical part.
This is a good example of using theory in an every day practical context, the OP seems to conceive of theory as being a separate subject not connected with the mechanics of playing but I see that as a problem of perception not of the actual utility of understanding how music works.
A recent example from my experience is that I have been trying to polish up my playing of a piano rag arrangement by Ken Perlman, I think Perlman played a short scale 00018 with a narrower neck than the guitar I am using. Knowing something about chords and melody from theory enabled me to identify the chords underlying the melody of some awkward passages for me and do some modest re arranging to make it easier to play by me on my guitar, so really I am a bit perplexed by those who give the impression that theory is not practically usefull. But then I am also perplexed as to why the OP seems to be devoting so much time to theory that from his first post I guess is being presented out of context of playing actual music, if a guitar teacher wants to introduce a student to sub dominant chords for example it makes obvious sense to me to do that within the context of learning an old jazzy song that uses such chords in the progression. After all explaning the theory in context only takes a few minutes.

Last edited by Andyrondack; 05-15-2021 at 02:29 AM.
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  #24  
Old 05-15-2021, 04:23 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Originally Posted by Deliberate1 View Post
Friends, I have been playing for about two year, and been taking weekly lesson for about a year and a half. The focus has largely been theory-based - chord structure, transposition, secondary dominants, chord melody, melodic minor modes, etc. And, to be sure, I find this very interesting, at least from an intellectual perspective.

But, after all this time, I find that I can practically use only a small fraction of what I have learned because I am still just trying to get my fingers untied to form chords, or move them fast enough to play or keep up. I am still trying to learn the fret board and triad alternative fingerings, which is a particular goal of mine. There has been very little focus on the mechanics of playing - picking patterns, barre chords, etc. And, in the absense of using the theory skills to make music, they eventually fade in time.

So to you teachers, or students of teachers, I would be interested to know what approach you take with new students, and the progression of skills/skillsets you focus on. I recognize that every teacher has a different approach and different priorities for new students. And that is what I would like you to describe to me.

Thanks
David
Hi David,
As JonPR put it: "Theory skills are for talking about the music you hear and make, to describe its elements"

I teach my students how to play entire fingerstyle pieces that I've written or arranged, note for note. In doing so they're gaining a generous amount of technique that is applicable elsewhere.

Tools in their tool-boxes. No scales, no exercises. I will use ham-bone drumming to audibly demonstrate syncopation, etc.

During the process of learning the compositions I minimally explain the 'theory' of the chords & melody (the key, the I, iim chords, etc) ONLY to the point where it helps them understand a particular tuning, or chord progression.

They do, however, absolutely need to be able to walk down the street, or mow the lawn, or vacuum the house while being able to hum the whole piece in their head. That is THE only way you can learn a piece of music: It has to be something you enjoy hearing, first & foremost.

Oh....and no tablature or notation. I don't read or write it.

I'll go into as much detail as they like, but NEVER enough to bore them to death, and sometimes absolutely nothing except for physically, AND aurally, working on the piece.

If you are able to sit in front of some friends, or a mirror with only yourself as the audience, and be able to play a piece that satisfies them, or you, or all parties concerned, then YOU are making music.

I guarantee you that if your audience starts asking you theory questions after hearing it, instead of telling you they enjoyed it, it won't make any difference what you're able to explain.

Best regards,
Howard Emerson
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  #25  
Old 05-15-2021, 05:31 AM
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When I was teaching I would always asked my students what they wanted to learn and what their expectations were. No matter what they answered I would always incorporate theory in to the first couple of lessons and then refer back to basic theory as we progressed and learned new stuff. I also explained that a good percentage of their (initial and on going) practice time should be dedicated to finger movement and muscle memory. Just working on getting both right and left hand to move as you want them to is something you do at home, not during a lesson. The ones that did the exercises, practiced the scales, and chord changes improved, the ones that did not, did not?
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  #26  
Old 05-15-2021, 08:10 AM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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OP here. Thanks all for the feedback.
My plan, as it was before I posted, is to have a chat with my teacher to discuss the direction my lessons will take. If that is unsuccessful, I will likely move on.
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Old 05-15-2021, 10:46 AM
Andyrondack Andyrondack is offline
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Originally Posted by Deliberate1 View Post
OP here. Thanks all for the feedback.
My plan, as it was before I posted, is to have a chat with my teacher to discuss the direction my lessons will take. If that is unsuccessful, I will likely move on.
David
Sounds like a good plan, best wishes in your endevour.
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Old 05-15-2021, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Deliberate1 View Post
OP here. Thanks all for the feedback.
My plan, as it was before I posted, is to have a chat with my teacher to discuss the direction my lessons will take. If that is unsuccessful, I will likely move on.
David
Good plan. Remember you are the client, the teacher is performing a service for you.

Like hiring an architect when you want to build a house - you obviously hire him for his professional skills and qualifications, but you don't let him build the house he likes. You commission him to design the house you want. You might well ask him for some ideas if your own plan is a little hazy (you trust his expertise); but the end product is to suit you, not him.

Too many guitar students treat teachers like teachers at school, where they have authority and you do what they say, follow their regime whether you like it (or understand it) or not. Sad to say, some guitar teachers behave like that too...
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Old 05-15-2021, 03:18 PM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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Thank you gents. Good place here. Great advice. I know this from experience because people pay me for it.
David
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